TF2Maps.net 72hr Summer Mapping Contest, June 27th, 2014
- Thread starter Fruity Snacks
- Start date
Smileytopin
L1: Registered
- Nov 25, 2013
- 40
- 17
Now that we've almost had two themed contests, I think I'll share my growing opinion on these, like I did a little in chat tonight.
If we're going to keep the method of having 72h contests springboard for major contests - which I think is fine, 72h contests motivate me to get really started - I think we should do away with the themes.
The point of the themes is to inspire creativity. Creativity flourishes under restrictions, this is known to most of us. 72h is a perfect time to do whacky and crazy things, which if they don't work can be scrapped quickly and moved on from.
The problem is, it doesn't serve that purpose in the shadow of the major contest,
The major contest by it's very nature is going to be less "creative". People want their maps to do well. They're examples of your skill, not an experimental area. They have big prizes and big rewards. To get to the top, you really need to create something that works really solidly, and to do that you need to draw from your past experiences as well as other maps, not try to create something you don't know if it will even *function*.
While not a bad thing at all, I think the underlying formulas behind major contests is that they're taken more seriously - by everyone. And I think that's the opposite of what the 72h contest should be.
Now you're probably saying "But can't people just do creative things in the 72h contest then start a new map afterwards?" Well yes, they can. But then what's the point of having the 72h contest springboard the major contest? This contest is REALLY bad for this because the themes are DESIGNED to be strung together. The theme could be interpreted in so many ways but no one is because 90% of people are mapping for the major contest. People don't want to make two maps, I know I already have too many maps as it is.
I think even Frozen himself is guilty of this. "War of the worlds" could mean so much - personally I had the idea of having two fantasy DnD style "worlds" as in worldbuilding, fighting - mages on red and siege experts and knights on blue. Have two contrasting fantasy worlds on either side of the map.
And then Frozen goes and posts a inspiration pack full of alien stuff - why? Because the major contest is about aliens. That's not what the theme is supposed to do, it's supposed to be interpreted in weird and whacky ways to get weird and whacky results. This isn't entirely the fault of the major contest either, last theme wasn't intrinsically linked to the major contest and it only produced more interesting results than what I'm seeing from this year so far.
What's even worse is that the idea behind the theme - clear, from the fact that frozen posted images as inspiration and tied it to the major contest - is one of aesthetics. Green aliens, flying saucers. Sure, there's been some interesting gameplay mechanics based around these appearing in the 72h contests (but not many...). most people are taking the aesthetical approach because that's exactly what we've been given to work with - and aesthetic, and people don't want to do crazy gameplay experiments in major contests.
----
I'll also take this opportunity to complain about the themes themselves, forgetting the major contest for a sec.
Frozen - you've admitted that last theme, "Prep up, Men" was pretty bad. But I don't think you've really analyzed why because you've largely repeated it with this contest's theme.
Prep up, Men was bad because it wasn't an theme that radically caused a rethink. Preparation is something that is already heavily prevalent in TF2 - and the result was people took exactly that and ran with it. Most people just did setup times - even Egans, the most creative entry IMO, still just did a setup time. I can't honestly remember any map that I thought did something truly interesting and unique with that theme.
Look at Ludum Dare's past themes. They're "ideas" Guardian. Escape. Evolution. Minamalist. Alone. They're not tangible things, they're a collection of connotations and cultural themes that cause you to explore it in a unique way. Say we had the theme Alone, I can't even immediately think of something obvious to do in tf2 because it's by and large a team game, it's not MEANT to represent Alone in any way - but THAT's where your creativity will come from. In fact, I'm sitting here now and I can't come up with a solution to that, and I think that's wonderful because it will require me to sit down and really think about it, REALLY try to think of something, and it'll likely be unique because of that. I said this to you last time, (and then you didn't heed my advice and repeated it), you need a theme where people don't immediately jump to an established conclusion.
"War of the worlds" repeats this mistake because it's something culturally relevant and already explored. Aliens have been done, most of us have heard or seen some form of war of the worlds, we're familiar with 60's sci fi aliens and even TF2 already has some established alien canon. And the result is that's exactly what people are running with - especially because you provided them with the exact style they needed to follow with the aliens in the form of props we're REQUIRED to use for the major contest, which most of us are mapping during the 72h for. Where's my opportunity for a fantasy magical world battle when the theme is basically "Aliens" and not actually "War of the worlds." Granted, this argument isn't fully true because the 72h maps don't have to be linked to the major contest, but you did absolutely nothing to help that. You posted a "theme pack" full of ALIEN images for goodness sake. And you wonder why people aren't being creative.
Additionally, I really think you should reveal the theme earlier - provided you make the themes better. We don't have the advantage Ludum dare has - we don't have a group working with us to bounce ideas off. A small group is going to be a lot more creative in a shorter time. We don't have that luxury, and I think letting the theme idea fester and churn in people's heads for a week or so will leave a LOT more creative results.
In fact - let's bring the major contest back into this now - I think that contests in general for tf2 maps aren't working well anymore. They're community events that for some reason don't seem to invoke the community. I don't see why they should be SUPER HUSH HUSH until the reveal - it's exciting, sure. I get that. You want people to be excited, and they are. And then there's the reveal, they're excited for about a day, and then people realize that there's problems with the contest - some not valid, sure - that could have been avoided with community discussion. This isn't just contests, I feel this is a huge problem with TF2Maps's administration as a whole...but that's a post for another day.
I've been here a long time. Something like 5 years. I've seen TF2Maps grow, I've grown myself. I've seen a lot of major and minor contests come and go, a lot of 72h contests, and I've participated in most of them. And it's only in the last couple of years that I've seen real backlash to the contests - the sheer negativity in the major contest (and even 72h contest) thread astounds me. That never happened before - not to the same extent anyway. And I believe it's because the community is really starting to feel the separation between the admins and the community - they contests are treated as such secretive and lofty events when they should just be us collectively trying to better ourselves in our hobby.
I'm not saying crowdsource the rules and themes and idea, I'm just saying open the actual contest rules, themes and idea up to a bit of discussion before you actually solidify them. You're so dead set on the rules you decide being the final rules - and then you're burned for it because you're forcing something that the community doesn't really want down their throats. I understand that this contest was sponsored, and that's fine, but there's so much you're being "BECAUSE I SAID SO" on this contest that I still think makes no sense. And you know what? We could have figured this out before the contest started. All of these negative posts wouldn't be pure "I hate this contest it's rules are stupid and x should be changed." They'd be "I think X should be changed because Y." Doesn't that sound better? Honest discussion can only ever improve the contest - and you should be open to it, not decide by yourself (or a small group of admins) and then be absolutely diamond hard on changing the rules....because then you're diamond brittle too.
Apologies for the long post, I basically just dumped my entire thoughts and a lot of what I've been picking up from the rest of the community into one post, and it got long. Sorry.
TL;DR go read the whole post. I'm not going to sum up a complex issue.
If we're going to keep the method of having 72h contests springboard for major contests - which I think is fine, 72h contests motivate me to get really started - I think we should do away with the themes.
The point of the themes is to inspire creativity. Creativity flourishes under restrictions, this is known to most of us. 72h is a perfect time to do whacky and crazy things, which if they don't work can be scrapped quickly and moved on from.
The problem is, it doesn't serve that purpose in the shadow of the major contest,
The major contest by it's very nature is going to be less "creative". People want their maps to do well. They're examples of your skill, not an experimental area. They have big prizes and big rewards. To get to the top, you really need to create something that works really solidly, and to do that you need to draw from your past experiences as well as other maps, not try to create something you don't know if it will even *function*.
While not a bad thing at all, I think the underlying formulas behind major contests is that they're taken more seriously - by everyone. And I think that's the opposite of what the 72h contest should be.
Now you're probably saying "But can't people just do creative things in the 72h contest then start a new map afterwards?" Well yes, they can. But then what's the point of having the 72h contest springboard the major contest? This contest is REALLY bad for this because the themes are DESIGNED to be strung together. The theme could be interpreted in so many ways but no one is because 90% of people are mapping for the major contest. People don't want to make two maps, I know I already have too many maps as it is.
I think even Frozen himself is guilty of this. "War of the worlds" could mean so much - personally I had the idea of having two fantasy DnD style "worlds" as in worldbuilding, fighting - mages on red and siege experts and knights on blue. Have two contrasting fantasy worlds on either side of the map.
And then Frozen goes and posts a inspiration pack full of alien stuff - why? Because the major contest is about aliens. That's not what the theme is supposed to do, it's supposed to be interpreted in weird and whacky ways to get weird and whacky results. This isn't entirely the fault of the major contest either, last theme wasn't intrinsically linked to the major contest and it only produced more interesting results than what I'm seeing from this year so far.
What's even worse is that the idea behind the theme - clear, from the fact that frozen posted images as inspiration and tied it to the major contest - is one of aesthetics. Green aliens, flying saucers. Sure, there's been some interesting gameplay mechanics based around these appearing in the 72h contests (but not many...). most people are taking the aesthetical approach because that's exactly what we've been given to work with - and aesthetic, and people don't want to do crazy gameplay experiments in major contests.
----
I'll also take this opportunity to complain about the themes themselves, forgetting the major contest for a sec.
Frozen - you've admitted that last theme, "Prep up, Men" was pretty bad. But I don't think you've really analyzed why because you've largely repeated it with this contest's theme.
Prep up, Men was bad because it wasn't an theme that radically caused a rethink. Preparation is something that is already heavily prevalent in TF2 - and the result was people took exactly that and ran with it. Most people just did setup times - even Egans, the most creative entry IMO, still just did a setup time. I can't honestly remember any map that I thought did something truly interesting and unique with that theme.
Look at Ludum Dare's past themes. They're "ideas" Guardian. Escape. Evolution. Minamalist. Alone. They're not tangible things, they're a collection of connotations and cultural themes that cause you to explore it in a unique way. Say we had the theme Alone, I can't even immediately think of something obvious to do in tf2 because it's by and large a team game, it's not MEANT to represent Alone in any way - but THAT's where your creativity will come from. In fact, I'm sitting here now and I can't come up with a solution to that, and I think that's wonderful because it will require me to sit down and really think about it, REALLY try to think of something, and it'll likely be unique because of that. I said this to you last time, (and then you didn't heed my advice and repeated it), you need a theme where people don't immediately jump to an established conclusion.
"War of the worlds" repeats this mistake because it's something culturally relevant and already explored. Aliens have been done, most of us have heard or seen some form of war of the worlds, we're familiar with 60's sci fi aliens and even TF2 already has some established alien canon. And the result is that's exactly what people are running with - especially because you provided them with the exact style they needed to follow with the aliens in the form of props we're REQUIRED to use for the major contest, which most of us are mapping during the 72h for. Where's my opportunity for a fantasy magical world battle when the theme is basically "Aliens" and not actually "War of the worlds." Granted, this argument isn't fully true because the 72h maps don't have to be linked to the major contest, but you did absolutely nothing to help that. You posted a "theme pack" full of ALIEN images for goodness sake. And you wonder why people aren't being creative.
Additionally, I really think you should reveal the theme earlier - provided you make the themes better. We don't have the advantage Ludum dare has - we don't have a group working with us to bounce ideas off. A small group is going to be a lot more creative in a shorter time. We don't have that luxury, and I think letting the theme idea fester and churn in people's heads for a week or so will leave a LOT more creative results.
In fact - let's bring the major contest back into this now - I think that contests in general for tf2 maps aren't working well anymore. They're community events that for some reason don't seem to invoke the community. I don't see why they should be SUPER HUSH HUSH until the reveal - it's exciting, sure. I get that. You want people to be excited, and they are. And then there's the reveal, they're excited for about a day, and then people realize that there's problems with the contest - some not valid, sure - that could have been avoided with community discussion. This isn't just contests, I feel this is a huge problem with TF2Maps's administration as a whole...but that's a post for another day.
I've been here a long time. Something like 5 years. I've seen TF2Maps grow, I've grown myself. I've seen a lot of major and minor contests come and go, a lot of 72h contests, and I've participated in most of them. And it's only in the last couple of years that I've seen real backlash to the contests - the sheer negativity in the major contest (and even 72h contest) thread astounds me. That never happened before - not to the same extent anyway. And I believe it's because the community is really starting to feel the separation between the admins and the community - they contests are treated as such secretive and lofty events when they should just be us collectively trying to better ourselves in our hobby.
I'm not saying crowdsource the rules and themes and idea, I'm just saying open the actual contest rules, themes and idea up to a bit of discussion before you actually solidify them. You're so dead set on the rules you decide being the final rules - and then you're burned for it because you're forcing something that the community doesn't really want down their throats. I understand that this contest was sponsored, and that's fine, but there's so much you're being "BECAUSE I SAID SO" on this contest that I still think makes no sense. And you know what? We could have figured this out before the contest started. All of these negative posts wouldn't be pure "I hate this contest it's rules are stupid and x should be changed." They'd be "I think X should be changed because Y." Doesn't that sound better? Honest discussion can only ever improve the contest - and you should be open to it, not decide by yourself (or a small group of admins) and then be absolutely diamond hard on changing the rules....because then you're diamond brittle too.
Apologies for the long post, I basically just dumped my entire thoughts and a lot of what I've been picking up from the rest of the community into one post, and it got long. Sorry.
TL;DR go read the whole post. I'm not going to sum up a complex issue.
Coolz
L2: Junior Member
- Sep 19, 2013
- 72
- 27
Question, What happens if a map is completed within the time limit but then the compiling time makes it a few minutes off of the deadline? Is it still enterable? Because my computer isn't fast on the compile time and if I don't finish early it might happen to me.
I don't wanna make to much of a fuss but similar to what Aly said, I feel that the 72hr should have been different to the Major contest.
1. People are thinking that the Mercs Vs Aliens is the 72 hour theme, so a lot of people are making Alien themed maps not Waw of the World themed. This is the same as what Aly said there wasnt much creativiting for the 72hr as there was reference which was just Aliens and Space related things, The focus was is seeming to be on "Gimmicky" gameplay with doesnt work that well in Tf2, If the contest was to make a map with some "Special Gameplay Feature" rather than War of the Worlds. I feel that it would be more fitting to then go on and say, now if you wanna use these 72hr maps for your major you have this gameplay idea which you have test and it now works, go and make a fun map for it. This would of been a lot better imo, or vice versa make a fun map then add the stuff after.
2. This idea of having a 72hr leading into a Major contest worked last time was the contest involved making a fun layout, not making a "gimmick"/Theme, about 75% of maps so far seems like they are all the same wise, (shoot laser at mothership) People seem to be spending more time on the visuals rather than gameplay. (Hell even iv done it) I feel this is also effecting new mappers how they are forced on testing and changing a layout but more time on the visuals, Which means the majority of maps don't play well or all feel the same. (Person opinion) A good example of doing something different is Egan's maps, yes they are mostly entity work but they are so different to everyone else no one really respects them as much as they should be.
3. This is sort of a summery of all the other stuff, I personally think It would of been better if you let people do what they would of liked to do for the 72hr it would produce much better and fun maps rather than people either trying to shoehorn a "Alien" gameplay in or just poorly designed maps as people have the fear of the War of the Worlds theme on them. A lot of the more experience mappers have realised this too so they are focusing on a fun layout 1st. The one example I can think of in the past, would be Trainsawlaser. That map started of with really good layout, you can have fun on that map without all the train guff.
So basically Iv just repeated what Aly said, but I feel that the 72 and major should not be linked or if they are don't tell people of the major contest. Theme wise for 72, having an open theme like "Prep up, Men" was good it was an idea, not the best but it was open to a lot of creativity. (also if grammer is bad, sorry haven't had much sleep thanks to this contest)
1. People are thinking that the Mercs Vs Aliens is the 72 hour theme, so a lot of people are making Alien themed maps not Waw of the World themed. This is the same as what Aly said there wasnt much creativiting for the 72hr as there was reference which was just Aliens and Space related things, The focus was is seeming to be on "Gimmicky" gameplay with doesnt work that well in Tf2, If the contest was to make a map with some "Special Gameplay Feature" rather than War of the Worlds. I feel that it would be more fitting to then go on and say, now if you wanna use these 72hr maps for your major you have this gameplay idea which you have test and it now works, go and make a fun map for it. This would of been a lot better imo, or vice versa make a fun map then add the stuff after.
2. This idea of having a 72hr leading into a Major contest worked last time was the contest involved making a fun layout, not making a "gimmick"/Theme, about 75% of maps so far seems like they are all the same wise, (shoot laser at mothership) People seem to be spending more time on the visuals rather than gameplay. (Hell even iv done it) I feel this is also effecting new mappers how they are forced on testing and changing a layout but more time on the visuals, Which means the majority of maps don't play well or all feel the same. (Person opinion) A good example of doing something different is Egan's maps, yes they are mostly entity work but they are so different to everyone else no one really respects them as much as they should be.
3. This is sort of a summery of all the other stuff, I personally think It would of been better if you let people do what they would of liked to do for the 72hr it would produce much better and fun maps rather than people either trying to shoehorn a "Alien" gameplay in or just poorly designed maps as people have the fear of the War of the Worlds theme on them. A lot of the more experience mappers have realised this too so they are focusing on a fun layout 1st. The one example I can think of in the past, would be Trainsawlaser. That map started of with really good layout, you can have fun on that map without all the train guff.
So basically Iv just repeated what Aly said, but I feel that the 72 and major should not be linked or if they are don't tell people of the major contest. Theme wise for 72, having an open theme like "Prep up, Men" was good it was an idea, not the best but it was open to a lot of creativity. (also if grammer is bad, sorry haven't had much sleep thanks to this contest)
It is very much preferred and in your favour to submit before the time is up.
If thats the case though, please PM me IMMEDIATELY on the forums.
Personally, my major objection to this contest would be that you're not challenging people enough. Almost all of the maps I've seen are literally just TF2 maps with a flying saucer stuck in it somewhere, and thus, what's really the point of the theme anyways? When I first heard about the theme for the last 72hr contest, I initially thought it was terrible, but the more I think on it, the more I like it: it challenged people to do something different, to do something interesting. When you tell people to make a map with an aesthetic theme and then go "here, here are you aesthetics" there's not much left for us to do on our end.
so here's the thing, challenging people to make new and innovative things is cool and all... BUT! creativity and innovation are usually not rewarded in the voting process.
maps that play it safe have much better chance to fall under the "is that something valve would do" mentality which from my observation over the years, is the very core of the voting/judging process.
with limited time and resources, you basically have to choose between one of two things: old, tried ideas you know already work (boring as all hell) or, be an underachieving innovator (because god knows contests don't allow maps to reach their full potential).
that's basically why I have stopped caring about contest a long time ago. I'm at least happy to see a non-restrictive contest as far as game mode goes.
maps that play it safe have much better chance to fall under the "is that something valve would do" mentality which from my observation over the years, is the very core of the voting/judging process.
with limited time and resources, you basically have to choose between one of two things: old, tried ideas you know already work (boring as all hell) or, be an underachieving innovator (because god knows contests don't allow maps to reach their full potential).
that's basically why I have stopped caring about contest a long time ago. I'm at least happy to see a non-restrictive contest as far as game mode goes.
For me, the challenge is more making a functioning map within the time than it is anything else. I'm still pretty new to mapping and need to learn a lot of things and it's good practice to see how far I've come from the last 72h contest I participated in. True, my map for this one is just a basic map with a saucer shoved in it but do to my current talent as well as the time limit. The challenge is entirely "can I make a decent looking functioning map in 72h" more than anything else.
*snort*
My response: lol, no. Just no. The situation now is waaaaaay better than it was five years ago.
Frozen's themes suck, and this major contest is a little unexpected and a bit abstract, but everything is going a lot smoother than it was before. I generally feel like the 72 hour stuff shouldn't have any themes at all. Instead have something like "Judges choice awards" So the community votes on the top 3 as per usual, then Frozen or the admins or whoever decide on 2-3 random curveball awards. Like this time it could be "Most aliens incorporated", "Best use of oil drums" and "Best height usage" while next time it might be "Best epic vista", "Craziest use of trains" and "God damn it Boojum, you've done it again". That sort of thing that's only decided once the entries are all in would encourage people to be creative in different ways each time, rather than have us all aim towards the same goal.
Coolz
L2: Junior Member
- Sep 19, 2013
- 72
- 27
Allright then gentlemen, I am almost done with mvm_Assault, a map made for this contest. Although it isn't done, I'd like to show off real quick a few pictures of the map and storyline as both have been completed. The only thing left is the scripting of the game mode, sooo it should be done pretty soon.
Enjoy the pictures and story.
Start room. Players spawn here.
Outside the spawn room, as you can see I have made some "A"s on top of the spawn room.
The room in which the bomb is deployed. Need to add lighting. As you can see there is a hole in the wall to provide access to tanks and giants.
The road outside the deploy room, at the end robot spawn point is broken.
A boarded up apartment hallway. Who knows what happened in there.
Second upgrade station to provide easy access to upgrades at front lines.
The Front Lines (1)
The Front Lines (2)
An archway that leads to health and ammo.
The Storyline:
Once upon a time in the tf2 universe there was a useless branch of the government called the "A.A.A." which stands for "Anti-Alien-Association".
For many years it 'wasted' money on creating not-so-secret Anti-Alien weapons, and being on the verge of being closed for good, the aliens happened. Naturally, the Aliens first order of business is to take out the weapons, but rather than going there themselves and risking the weapons being used against them then and there, they take over Grey Mann's robot army and sent them instead. Anti-Alien weapons wouldn't work on robots, right?
It was at this point that the "A.A.A." borrowed Mann Co's mercenaries to defend the cache of weapons. Unknown to the mercenaries, however, the robots set up base much closer than they thought, and with little breathing room, it would be easy to get overwhelmed. But they must try. That cache of weapons could mean the difference between the oncoming war, and if it is lost? Earth as we know it-- the WORLD as we know it would be lost along with them. This is one battle they CANNOT fail.
--Not changing storyline so feel free to say whatever.
Last edited:
I've already chatted with Aly about her post. We will definitely be trying some more new things out in regards to communication with the community and these contests.
While a lot of what has been said has been very critical, I actually very much appreciate all that feedback that people have posted in regard to these two contests. This type of feedback is really helpful for me when designing future contests.
/endofficialsoundingresponse
Seriously though guys, while the feedback posts do make me frustrated for about 3 minutes, I'm really proud and glad of the fact that you guys care enough to make a post about it and to be critical of what goes on in this community. Thanks for being awesome.
You could try releasing the theme a few weeks in advance just to give people time to ponder it and/or discuss it.
Usually the source of the complaints is that people had all these preconceived ideas about what they wanted to do with their map and get pissed off because they can't easily change their plans. Which honestly I think is the fault of the entrant and not the organizer, but considering there's been around 20 pages worth of complaints it's probably easier to change how the contests are announced.
Usually the source of the complaints is that people had all these preconceived ideas about what they wanted to do with their map and get pissed off because they can't easily change their plans. Which honestly I think is the fault of the entrant and not the organizer, but considering there's been around 20 pages worth of complaints it's probably easier to change how the contests are announced.
Maybe set up a suggestion/vote thing so people can decide on what the theme will be and have an idea of which themes could be used for the contest.
Defeats the purpose if you ask me. These "jam" competitions are all about being handed a stupid theme and being forced to make the best of it in a limited amount of time. Allowing people to veto the theme just means no one gets forced outside their comfort zone.
There are game jams that literally us a random generator to make themes:
http://orteil.dashnet.org/gamegen
I'm participating in one that starts tomorrow where the theme is "public access tv."
The point of these things is not to make the next great game/map. It's to have fun and brainstorm weird solutions, exercising your brain muscles.
There are game jams that literally us a random generator to make themes:
http://orteil.dashnet.org/gamegen
I'm participating in one that starts tomorrow where the theme is "public access tv."
The point of these things is not to make the next great game/map. It's to have fun and brainstorm weird solutions, exercising your brain muscles.
- Jul 22, 2009
- 1,874
- 1,258
that doesnt sound like any tf2m major contest i remember
nor do i think tf2m contests should be pushed in that direction lest they become exclusive to experienced mappers
The last 72 hour contest had the exact same type of complaining.
I'm not sure excluding beginners is a valid concern, if a newbie wants to make a map, they will.