TF2 Redux: What could have been done better?

What could be better?


  • Total voters
    26

Trotim

aa
Jul 14, 2009
1,195
1,045
If you wanted to remake TF2 there are hundreds of things to do differently based on what we've learned. Just copying 95% of an ancient game is silly. And if you're unhappy with Valve's current (mod) support why bet on Source 2?

What you should do instead is make a TF3 ala Overwatch or MNC
 
Last edited:

Coding Ethan

L2: Junior Member
Oct 12, 2014
93
109
If you wanted to remake TF2 there are hundreds of things to do differently based on what we've learned. Just copying 95% of an ancient game is silly. And if you're unhappy with Valve's current (mod) support why bet on Source 2?

What you should do instead is make a TF3 ala Overwatch or MNC

That is sort of what the remake would be, more content and new features to expand possibilities, effectively a sequel to a sequel to a remake to a mod.
 
Last edited:

Empyre

L6: Sharp Member
Feb 8, 2011
309
187
In TFC, the mappers had some powerful entities that allowed them to make their own game mode. It would be awesome to have that flexibility back.
 

Coding Ethan

L2: Junior Member
Oct 12, 2014
93
109
In TFC, the mappers had some powerful entities that allowed them to make their own game mode. It would be awesome to have that flexibility back.

I'll look in to that, it seems like a great idea!
 

YM

LVL100 YM
aa
Dec 5, 2007
7,135
6,056
If you and your team have the skill, the time and the drive to completely rebuild TF2, why [on earth is that what you're doing with all that effort rather than making a product you can sell?
 

hutty

aa
Mar 30, 2014
542
445
you should note that projects get way larger then you think they are once you start doing actual work on them ...

but seeing as that has been stated by other people ... heres some suggestions

base it off a newer branch of the engine than tf2's (cs:go's branch is cool)

add more than 2 teams (yellow team)

map entity controlled huds would be nice
 

Coding Ethan

L2: Junior Member
Oct 12, 2014
93
109
If you and your team have the skill, the time and the drive to completely rebuild TF2, why [on earth is that what you're doing with all that effort rather than making a product you can sell?

Team Fortress 2 just has something that keeps me coming back to it, I don't know what it is, but that it why I like the idea of remaking it, with more features.

you should note that projects get way larger then you think they are once you start doing actual work on them ...

but seeing as that has been stated by other people ... heres some suggestions

base it off a newer branch of the engine than tf2's (cs:go's branch is cool)

add more than 2 teams (yellow team)

map entity controlled huds would be nice

As previously mentioned, I would very much like to build it on Source 2 for it's new and better capabilities, better performance, better texture qualities and more polygons for lower-end PCs.

More teams? It would add some variety, but it could also be difficult for gameplay. 4 teams of eight players on a 32 player server, or 4 teams of six players on a 24 player server. Players would be spread out over pre-existing maps, only 4/3 defending and 4/3 attacking per team, that wouldn't go too well, it could end up bing a bit quiet and could get boring, or all 3 teams could go and attack the remaining.

One thing that I was considering is some sort of HUD maker, you could tie an entity to a specific value and then trigger that entity to change the value. Maybe have it store presets for already existing HUDs and saved HUDs, however there could be a few issues with this due to differing screen sizes and also maps with advertisements on the HUD.
Maybe have it so it can lock elements to corners and middle bottom/top/left/right.
 

InstantMuffin

L2: Junior Member
May 26, 2014
64
48
If there are no other programmers then the game's progress may be slower than if people joined in from the community, some of the code from Team Fortress 2 is hopefully going to be reused to save time on this large project, albeit with some clean-up work for readability.[...]

Copyright.
Only actual code available is from a leak in 2012, it shouldn't have to be mentioned that it's illegal.

[...]Currently both of us are in High School, I'm currently in the last year and will be going to college after finishing school, my friend is in the year below.
I have been playing around with source code a bit with some other projects myself, my friend has currently contributed ideas to this project, which is as far as we have really gotten, it's just cleaning up those ideas and presenting them.

I'm sorry but based on what I read I have no faith in the project. There's a lot of people like you with your background having the idea of recreating a successful game which required a lot of work and a studio of people skilled in what they do and with years of experience to be made in the first place. It just doesn't work like that. Projects/ideas like yours simply fade into the myst without ever being more than two pieces of paper tied together as a concept. Unfortunately there's a lot of those types of people among computer science freshmen. They drop out, instantly.
While this type of thread may not be very typical for this forum, this occurs in coding forums on a regular basis. Now you may say that you're looking for people to assist you and they should bring the expertise, but those people will either have their own realistic projects or would see you as deadweight in a team.
Regardless I wish you the best of luck with wherever this may lead you.
 

Coding Ethan

L2: Junior Member
Oct 12, 2014
93
109
Copyright.
Only actual code available is from a leak in 2012, it shouldn't have to be mentioned that it's illegal.



I'm sorry but based on what I read I have no faith in the project. There's a lot of people like you with your background having the idea of recreating a successful game which required a lot of work and a studio of people skilled in what they do and with years of experience to be made in the first place. It just doesn't work like that. Projects/ideas like yours simply fade into the myst without ever being more than two pieces of paper tied together as a concept. Unfortunately there's a lot of those types of people among computer science freshmen. They drop out, instantly.
While this type of thread may not be very typical for this forum, this occurs in coding forums on a regular basis. Now you may say that you're looking for people to assist you and they should bring the expertise, but those people will either have their own realistic projects or would see you as deadweight in a team.
Regardless I wish you the best of luck with wherever this may lead you.

All the content that I will use from TF2 and TFC will be used legally, by gaining the permission from Valve to use their content.
Projects can succeed, projects can fail, as with everything there is calculated risk and reward.

The game itself is not going to be scrapped, it might take longer than most games because it is my first consumer game, even if the game does hit a road block or ends up being canned, elements from it will still be used in later projects.

As for planning, currently we have lots of pages of rough notes, concept gamemodes and even a few weapons, some redesigned maps in progress, etc.
 

Coding Ethan

L2: Junior Member
Oct 12, 2014
93
109
Looking through your poll, nearly every option was the opposite of what came to mind on how to "do it better" a second time around. :/

If the options do not cover something that could be done better, then please comment it. Feedback is important, especially in planning and development phases.
 

A Boojum Snark

Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado
aa
Nov 2, 2007
4,775
7,670
Well I mean... it is literally the opposite of what you are apparently looking to do, based on your ideas in the poll. I didn't want to be a wet blanket, but here you go.

1. less hats.
2. less weapons, not more than a single alternate for each slot, they really aren't needed.
3. classes are fine (see 2) and I might even go so far as to remove sniper and spy if they couldn't be reworked into a more "engaged" class because their dynamic is so different from the rest of the classes (they kill you without engaging you and giving you a chance to fight).
4. Better bots would be nice, but I don't think FPS bots will ever be able to compare to human players (while not feeling like the bot is simply cheating).
5. simpler how? I'm usually limited because I can't do something complex. streamlined or efficient maybe, but not simpler. That is kinda a project on its own anyway.
6. compact and precoded entities are my bane and I have wished for more free-form ones since launch
7. see 3
8. see 2
9. we already have lan support...?
10. I'm not sure how much you can train someone without them actually playing against people.
11. more map variety is always good.
12. except when it comes to ports. the older TF games had a drastically different game flow and most maps need such an overhaul to fit into TF2 that you might as well make a new one.
 

Coding Ethan

L2: Junior Member
Oct 12, 2014
93
109
Well I mean... it is literally the opposite of what you are apparently looking to do, based on your ideas in the poll. I didn't want to be a wet blanket, but here you go.

1. less hats.
2. less weapons, not more than a single alternate for each slot, they really aren't needed.
3. classes are fine (see 2) and I might even go so far as to remove sniper and spy if they couldn't be reworked into a more "engaged" class because their dynamic is so different from the rest of the classes (they kill you without engaging you and giving you a chance to fight).
4. Better bots would be nice, but I don't think FPS bots will ever be able to compare to human players (while not feeling like the bot is simply cheating).
5. simpler how? I'm usually limited because I can't do something complex. streamlined or efficient maybe, but not simpler. That is kinda a project on its own anyway.
6. compact and precoded entities are my bane and I have wished for more free-form ones since launch
7. see 3
8. see 2
9. we already have lan support...?
10. I'm not sure how much you can train someone without them actually playing against people.
11. more map variety is always good.
12. except when it comes to ports. the older TF games had a drastically different game flow and most maps need such an overhaul to fit into TF2 that you might as well make a new one.

I can see why some people would like there to be less hats, however I can also see character customisation as one of the features that keeps the game fresh and also keeps the trading community active.

Less weapons? I can see reskins being annoying, but new concepts and new properties on weapons adds a fun variety to the game.

Snipers can be seen negatively because of their class being used by players coming from other games where the sniper class is great, however they can be played well, which the tutorial should teach.
Spies do have quite a bit of interaction as they usually hang around for a while before getting a kill or sapping for an opportune moment.
In short, keeping Sniper and Spy might be a bad idea, but removing them could be worse.

Yeah, bots can only get so far.

Simpler entities, rather than the Frankenstein's monster that is a payload cart, a single point entity, which can do everything a payload cart could do, customisation etc. you could even parent stuff to it. It means you can have more content and less edicts used.

Full training means that not only the Spy, Engineer, Demoman and Soldier get some training, so do the other classes.

Map ports will try to keep to the theme of the original map whilst working with the new game and it's mechanics, the look of specific areas of maps will try to be preserved, albeit with a slight overhaul.
 

A Boojum Snark

Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado
aa
Nov 2, 2007
4,775
7,670
Visual character customization isn't necessary, though. Hundreds of games give you what there is and people play it nonetheless. When it isn't there, most people don't actively desire it. Removing it from TF2 at this point WOULD be drastic and bad, but I was responding to the overall idea of the thread "do it over" more than your actual goal of changing the game we have.

Reskins are actually the least of my concern. It is all the other ones that are extraneous and complicate the game. When you had only three weapons on a class, you knew exactly what you were dealing with when you prepare to engage the enemy you see ahead. That was part of mastering the game, learning how to handle each class vs each class. Having a single (maybe even two) good alternate weapon for each slot that provides a meaningful difference while staying within the archetype of the class still allows you to predict the coming encounter pretty well ("I think he has X, but there is a 30% chance he might be using Y, either way, I know what I'm dealing with"). When you have as many as we do now, you can have five of the same class on one team, and every one of them has a different loadout. There is simply too much to reasonably learn the nuances.

I could go on and on for pages about the sniper and spy, they are a sore spot, and you are echoing what people have said in the past. I'll try to keep my point short. Regardless of any alternate weapons, or specific ways to counter them in given situations, the very core of their archetypes are non-engagement combat. The sniper is supposed to kill you from too far to be seen. The spy is supposed to kill you without being detected. This is anti-engagement and anti-gameplay, literally. Their primary purpose is fulfilled when the enemy could not play against them. Games are meant to be played with and against people. Thus my ideal Team Fortress has 7 classes.

I guess a payload could be made simpler, but had it been invented later in the game's life when valve started hardcoding everything, I can only imagine how restrictive it would be and how many maps wouldn't exist because they relied on changing small things about the payload system. I don't think the actual game logic entities ever amount to significant edicts except when you are doing something really weird (me, Egan, Penguin). Even on payload, the path_tracks themselves are the extreme majority of game "logic" edicts.

I get that you can port a map successfully, it is just my personal opinion that the effort is better spent on a brand new map rather than "converting" a map that puts limitations on you, and might end up different enough that oldies won't care about it being a port because the nostalgia factor isn't there.

But... I really didn't want to get into a big discussion about this, because like I originally said, your goal seems to be drastically opposed to what I came into the thread thinking. I wasn't even expecting someone actually wanting to mod the game, just talk. You are seeking to add to and change the game to improve it, I feel it needs a pruning because there has already been too much unchecked growth. None of this really matters to your project.
 
Apr 14, 2013
663
343
9. we already have lan support...?
Really? What?!?

And on topic, I'd say you should go with a minimalist approach to the whole thing. Massive projects tend to get abandoned or imbalanced. Don't make lots of weapons and hats and classes and maps etc. As they say: quality is more important than quantity.

And IMO, don't try to remake a better tf2. If you make a mod, it'll rather be different than tf2, and have something new and fresh. Like, maybe go for tf3, rather than tf2.5, if you see what I mean.

Actually, when I think about it, you should try to make tf0.3 rather than tf2.5.
 

Coding Ethan

L2: Junior Member
Oct 12, 2014
93
109
Really? What?!?

And on topic, I'd say you should go with a minimalist approach to the whole thing. Massive projects tend to get abandoned or imbalanced. Don't make lots of weapons and hats and classes and maps etc. As they say: quality is more important than quantity.

And IMO, don't try to remake a better tf2. If you make a mod, it'll rather be different than tf2, and have something new and fresh. Like, maybe go for tf3, rather than tf2.5, if you see what I mean.

Actually, when I think about it, you should try to make tf0.3 rather than tf2.5.

It will be not just a remake, it will be a new game with features that will expand upon previous team fortress games, specifically TF2.
When the game is first released it will be a working product with limited hats and weapons that get added to every few weeks, eventually adding all the weapons and hats from TF2 along with a few new ones.
 

Idolon

they/them
aa
Feb 7, 2008
2,107
6,116
I could go on and on for pages about the sniper and spy, they are a sore spot, and you are echoing what people have said in the past. I'll try to keep my point short. Regardless of any alternate weapons, or specific ways to counter them in given situations, the very core of their archetypes are non-engagement combat. The sniper is supposed to kill you from too far to be seen. The spy is supposed to kill you without being detected. This is anti-engagement and anti-gameplay, literally. Their primary purpose is fulfilled when the enemy could not play against them. Games are meant to be played with and against people. Thus my ideal Team Fortress has 7 classes.

Finally someone who agrees with me! I've been saying the same thing for a long time. Sniper and Spy might balance well, but they're just not fun to play against for the reasons you've stated.