So is this a "comp" server or a "pub" server?

Discussion in 'Site Discussion' started by The Political Gamer, Nov 16, 2010.

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Server settings

  1. Cirt, Spread, Intel Crit

    41.9%
  2. Crit, Spread, No Intel Crit

    10.5%
  3. Crit, No Spread, Intel Crit

    3.5%
  4. Crit, No Spread, No Intel Crit

    1.2%
  5. No crit, Spread, Intel Crit

    5.8%
  6. No Crit, Spread, No Intel Crit

    3.5%
  7. No crit, No Spread, Intel Crit

    7.0%
  8. No Crit, No Spread, No Intel Crit

    26.7%
  1. The Political Gamer

    aa The Political Gamer

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    So apparently crits, spread, and Intel crits are turned off on both servers. I really don't understand why this is, I thought the server was supposed to replicate the "typical" TF2 server IE how valve does it. Crits and spread were, have been, and will forever be a integral part of TF2. As for Intel crits sure they are new relative to the other 2 but it still plays a role in the "typical" TF2 server."

    Some would say that turning them off or on has no effect on balance. That one blast of crits from the pyro cleaning up the control point, the Engie with no health fending off the Spy, the list goes on. However, one thing says the same; crits play a role in TF2 and removing them is like removing the big "We test maps just like Valve does" sign we hang up so proudly. Hell we might as well replace it with a "24/7 NO CRIT NO SPREAD" sign. Even if you don't like them you can always request them to removed during your map's test but don't push it on to other people just because you as a person can't stand them.

    Nevertheless, some of you might be wondering why I put the poll up. Well its to see how many people really feel we should tamper with Valve's settings. Hopefully the poll will be used to determine the real server settings for gamedays. In other words people could request what settings they want. Also the current server setting would be in the gameday blurb to tell people whats going on instead of leaving them in the dark like they have been.

    Also do us a favor and tell us why you think things should/should not be on the sever for your vote to really count. Oh and it needs to be beyond "bbaaawwww I don't like being killed by crits" or don't even bother posting.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2010
  2. Nineaxis

    aa Nineaxis Quack Doctor

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    First of all, we don't know how Valve tests maps.

    Secondly, the point disabling all that is it removes confounding variables in play tests, same reason they are disable in competitive play. It makes the test "pure" in a sense, it won't be smudged by crits or random damage, which may play a role in establishing some bias in how it plays out in that test.

    And "is this a comp or pub server?" is not the question here, it's obviously a public server, but what we're asking here is do you want random chance affecting how maps are tested. This is not a comp vs. pub debate and should not be.
     
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  3. The Political Gamer

    aa The Political Gamer

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    If we really are going to turn them all off at least put up a notice on gameday threads telling people that they are off.
     
  4. fubarFX

    aa fubarFX The "raw" in "nodraw"

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    intel crit should be left at mapper's discretion.
    off by default tho
     
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  5. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    The fact that no one noticed nor complained about it until it was mentioned should say something about how significant it is to people. Also, the fact that nobody is raging about crits or losing in combat in general is something we should take as a positive reaction to these settings.

    Nine pretty much hammered the nail on the head with the term "pure combat". Random crits throw balanced gameplay out of the window (as they were designed to potentially break even stalemates, amongst other aims), creating disreptancies and anomylies in testing when it comes to determing what was OP and what is not. Random crits wont determine the success of your maps RC's but will potentially slow successful development to RC.

    I don't care about spread as it's less significant and we're talking about 1-5 HP in combat.

    Personally i've found the server more comfortable, enjoyable and stimulating to play in with crits off.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 16, 2010
  6. The Political Gamer

    aa The Political Gamer

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    Still waiting. :|
     
  7. Arnold

    Arnold L6: Sharp Member

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    should have been turned off from the start tbh.

    Anyway nineaxis pretty much said it all.
    And tpg have some patience i'm sure they'll put up a notice so people know the server is a lot more enjoyable and provides better feedback for mappers.
     
  8. TMP

    aa TMP Abuser of Site Rules

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    Crits are off on the servers? And spread?

    Damn, I didn't notice.

    In a pyro v pyro battle it ends up being a bit more than that at times, and can easily change the tides of a fight by pure chance alone.

    Otherwise yeah.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2010
  9. Grim Tuesday

    aa Grim Tuesday

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    I dislike crits being off, especially when I go on meele battles.
     
  10. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

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    I didn't know these were off. Turning crits and spread off is asinine.

    Nineaxis, I think saying Valve doesn't test maps with vanilla settings is foolish.

    I think that changing the COF is a bad idea because weapons are balanced around the idea of there being a COF. When you start to take that away, or crits away, or anything else like that you start having weapons that are now objectively better or worse than their counterparts. It's a bad idea.

    I even want intel crits. CTF is the worst game type in TF2 and intel crits make it slightly more bearable.
     
  11. Moose

    Moose L6: Sharp Member

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    some weapons are balanced around the idea of taking random crits away, but that doesn't really make all that much of a difference. Plus, you could argue that keeping crits on is incredibly unbalanced. It rewards players who do well, giving them more kills, and there are definitely weapons that benefit more from crits than others. As for spread or intel crits, I don't see how they really change testing, other than making the game feel more vanilla.
     
  12. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

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    It does make a difference when a weapon is balanced around taking crits away. It means that when Valve tries to balance the game, they include crits. Therefore when we try to balance maps, we should include crits.

    Leaving off crits means there is no reason to not use the Powerjack over the Axe. Literally no reason. And that's stupid.

    Crits are unbalanced, that's the point of them. They literally exist to unbalance things in small, subtle ways. It doesn't matter what weapons receive crits "better" or "worse" than others; what matters is that they exist at all.

    And yes, spread is a huge deal. I actually consider it a much larger deal than crits. Having a perfect spread means that all your shotgun pellets are more likely to hit when you shoot somewhere, that's true, but that's not how the shotgun is designed or balanced against things. The Heavy's minigun is not designed or balanced around him being able to hit everything dead on whenever he wants.

    These are small, subtle ways that you are fundamentally changing the way the game is played and I think it's for the worse. If this is really a map testing community, I think it's best to test maps at vanilla settings, and not with whatever flavor of TF2 some admins think is best. If other groups, clans, websites or friends want to run a server with edited options, that's their prerogative, but we shouldn't be designing maps for them from the get-go.

    It's shocking to me that anyone would be on board with this at a testing website.
     
  13. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

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    For the record, I don't care if you turn things off at a mapper's request or for casual play or whatever. But as long as you are testing maps on a game day, the server ought to be vanilla. I don't really think there is a counter argument.

    I want all my maps tested on vanilla settings from now on.
     
  14. The Political Gamer

    aa The Political Gamer

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    If it means anything nine said it would be a bitch to configure each map for crits, etc.
     
  15. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

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    No it wouldn't. It's all SourceMod commands and I know you have SourceMod. Each one of these is a simple 1/0 console command that can be bound to a key or whatever. You just have to give the server admins the power to change it, which is similarly easy. If Nine thinks it's hard, I'll do it for him.
     
  16. Prestige

    aa Prestige im not gay anymore

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    Oh god please don't turn crits on. it makes the game 20% less fun. in fact, let's also get rid of natascha and the sandman. and if you ask me your average disorganized pub rarely sparks good feedback.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2010
  17. A Boojum Snark

    aa A Boojum Snark Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado

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    My opinions:

    People can argue the pros and cons of randocrit forever. I prefer them on. Whatever.

    Spread? Is this pellet spread or damage spread? I think the grid pellet setting is the most asinine thing I've ever seen requested by a community. What the hell is wrong with TF2's comp community? That's how shotguns have worked in basically every game ever. Random damage spread? Meh. It's not like there are that many encounters that it makes a significant difference in.

    Capture crits: I prefer them off, only because I see them as a failed attempt to "fix" CTF as a whole when really the problem was with the existing CTF maps. But this is moot now, since there is map-level control of capture crits.


    The facts:

    Are you guys kidding me? You think crits throws off testing? By and far the LARGEST variable in testing is the player skill level itself. We all remember the "flame ruins testing" debacle. We've all seen it happen to varying degrees, a test going sour and nigh pointless because of obvious skill imbalance. These kinds of tests will happen far more often than the random number generator swaying power significantly in favor of one team or another. At least with random damage and crits it is RANDOM, and likely to swing back and forth both ways. If you have unbalanced teams that's just how they are. Sure you can scramble, but then you are turning to the dreaded random factors (I have not witnessed any of the "smart" scramble plugins perform better than purely random scrambles).

    Above all, one or two tests DO NOT make or break a map, and should never be relied upon heavily in such small numbers. Any map should normally go through enough testing as to render any test bias or imbalance due to skill or crits or anything completely null and void. Feel you got a bad test because of a couple lucky crits causing one team to win? Tough crap. Deal with it. Test more. At least you had valid balanced testing up to that point, opposed to having a skill imbalance that negates the entire round.


    My conclusion: Vanilla like Valve intended it.
     
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  18. HellJumper

    aa HellJumper

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    I totally agree with Booj on this... Vanilla = how valve intended it. I'm pretty sure valve playtests maps the way they created the game. Simple logic, just sayin'

    What really pisses me off: NO BACK STAB ANIMATIONS

    Someone please explain to me why this was disabled. There is no point to removing it.
     
  19. fubarFX

    aa fubarFX The "raw" in "nodraw"

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    the animation is your "that's gonna crit" confirmation. if crits are disabled, the crit ain't gonna happen and the animation won't trigger.
    that's how valve coded it.
    may sound stupid at first but that's sorta what players playing with crits disabled are looking for, a vanilla experience with a vanilla knife.
     
  20. Icarus

    aa Icarus

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    Last time I checked, spreads and damage on the server were still vanilla. They should be. I'm the one who set them when we got new servers. Nobody really notices when it changes.

    Of all the meaningless discussions we have, this has to be the worst. :/
     
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    Last edited: Nov 17, 2010