So is this a "comp" server or a "pub" server?

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sniprpenguin

L6: Sharp Member
Mar 14, 2008
266
258
Personally, I like the vanilla settings through and through. And honestly, a lot of the gripes against crits and spread and what-not seem to be those of personal taste rather than of testing.

Look, crits are a part of the game whether you like it or not. Several weapons have no random crits for a reason. Yes, you can play with them off on several servers, but in terms of testing maps, they should be left on.

If you really want to be obtrusive and say that the mapper has to specify whether they want it on or not, fine. However, what if they don't know they have to set it? What then?
 

tarmo-

L3: Member
Dec 10, 2008
108
28
Name at least 5 non official maps that are not koth or 5cp maps that are played regularly in comp communities.

As far as I know, this is going off topic already.

But as you are requesting, our COMPETETIVE highlander pickups maplist:
[19:34:27] [trm-] !maplist
[19:34:27] [@HLFIBOT] cp_dustbowl, cp_gravelpit, pl_goldrush, pl_hoodoo_final, pl_badwater, plr_pipeline, pl_dbheights, pl_waste_b4, tc_hydro, cp_steel, pl_upward, pl_thundermountain, plr_hightower, pl_outback_rc4, cp_mountainlab

Most of them are official of course, but many of them are non-valve maps.
 

A Boojum Snark

Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado
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Nov 2, 2007
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7,669
Lets think of a situation, where you basically would've hit the perfect meatshot with scattergun, should do ~104 damage with that hit. With the random spread, same kind of shot, you do 24 damage (yes, that has happened, many times). That is just so f'ing ridiculous to even think that random spread should be on and break the balance of the players. People have to have same chances to win battles, and with random spread off, that is happening.
Why is disabling random spread such a weird notion to you guys? Now instead of having the game decide wether or not you actually hit a player with all pellets, you have all control. I honestly don't see the problem.
It's a shotgun. That's how they work. That's how they have always worked. In every game. If your perfectly dead-center aimed shot that "should" do 104 damage only does 24 because of the spread, maybe that's how it is supposed to be because you are attacking beyond the optimal range of a weapon that isn't a straight shot rifle? Why is the notion of making a shotgun NOT spread at random NOT weird to you guys? How many times have you been mad about not killing with a shotgun because of spread in other games? Probably never because you knew you were potshotting too far away.


The random criticals are the most retarded part of "vanilla" tf2. I don't know why you should have them on, they break the balance, they aren't fair in any situation, lucky shots can cause teams either lose or win. In the map testing, there shouldn't be any random shit which could shatter the balance. If you balance the map with the chance of random criticals, you are walking the wrong way.
You act as though crits are the only thing that can throw off balance, when really they are a tiny fraction of that which can.

Besides, if you're releasing a map into the public and "there is never any teamplay" surely it makes sense to test with no teamplay if that's how it's gonna be played; with no teamplay.

If we can avoid a random crit killing a flag carrier or ninja spy on the final point why should we turn that oppotunity down? Especially if it reduces the amount of tests that are required to determine balance.
My answer to the second quote is, replace "no teamplay" with "crits" in the first quote.
 
Apr 19, 2009
4,460
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No its not because I am trying to make a point that you just proved. You said that turning off crits for testing it would make it more "comp friendly." However, the chances of say a pl map being played in comp is still slim to none and I for one would much rather test my map with the settings that it would be played at more often then not.

Also cirts are great because they keep TF2 from becoming a numbers game or Rock, Paper, Scissors.
 

tyler

aa
Sep 11, 2013
5,102
4,621
This thread got even worse while I was away.

This shouldn't be a question of personal preference.

It doesn't matter if you think crits, damage spread or cone of fire are unabalanced, unbalancing, cheap, unfair, or stupid, because the game was designed to include them. It doesn't matter if you hate random chance.

It's not a matter of "adding dice to chess", cripes what a terrible analogy. The dice are already in TF2. It's a question of weighting the dice so they always roll seven so long as you are smart enough to roll them at all, which is ridiculous.

At it's core, TF2 is a casual shooting game that benefits from team play. A random crit killing the intel carrier shouldn't matter because your team should be there helping you if at all possible. If a random crit kills you and no one can grab the intel, you were going to die anyway. It's ridiculously foolish to assume anything other than that Valve balances maps with all random effects on -- that's a logical assumption. If you, as a community, wish to make maps that can one day become official, it is in your best interest to follow their example in that regard.

I get mad at this shit all the time. I still don't want to turn off variability.

Again: it doesn't matter if you think crits or cone of fire or damage spread unbalance the game or make it unfair. It simply does not matter one little bit because that's how TF2 is meant to be played. You are not correctly balancing a map if you are not taking into account all the variables and it is impossible to take into account all the variables if you turn them off. Playing a map twice -- once with nothing, again with everything -- is a ridiculous suggestion.

What I see in this thread is people I've never seen posting before advocating for how other people's maps should be tested. This is perhaps the most annoying thing out of all of it.

I don't care what you do, in the end, but I'll always request my maps be played with all random effects because I want to actually make a good map. If anything, people making competitive-oriented maps should be requesting random effects be turned off, not the other way around.
 

grazr

Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle
aa
Mar 4, 2008
5,441
3,814
You really don't understand what teamplay entails if you claim that publics do have teamplay.

I never said public have amazing team play and that wasn't my point. I was saying the regular testers have a reasonable amount of cooperation (not to the level of comp, but that's not important). Why is this even being discussed anyway? It's off topic.

@ Booj. I thought you'd say that, and fair enough. Whilst having random crits is normal, which his fine, I simply see no crits as a benefit to testing.
 
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Okrag

Wall Staples
aa
Jun 10, 2009
1,029
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Crits frustrate players and make them more likely to have a negative impression of a map, skewing feedback.
 

tyler

aa
Sep 11, 2013
5,102
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Crits frustrate players and make them more likely to have a negative impression of a map, skewing feedback.

I could not disagree more. If a player gets mad enough at crits to call an entire map bad, I don't want their feedback anyway.
 

Okrag

Wall Staples
aa
Jun 10, 2009
1,029
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I could not disagree more. If a player gets mad enough at crits to call an entire map bad, I don't want their feedback anyway.

They aren't going to say an entire map is bad, but to them it will seem less good because they aren't enjoying themselves as much.
 

tyler

aa
Sep 11, 2013
5,102
4,621
If someone can't separate their feelings for crits from a map, I feel basically the same.
 

tarmo-

L3: Member
Dec 10, 2008
108
28
Appearantely I can't quote boojumsnark. Well anyways, the shotgun was an example. Every gun has random damage. Even stickylauncher or the grenade launcher. with random damage, glauncher can make 65-125 damage hits? I can't remember the exact values. Without, its always fixed, so you know how much damage you have done. Of course the damage reduces the farther away you are. Random anyways with the random damage/spread.

I'm just trying to say here, that more balanced the basic rules in the games are, more balanced the map will become if it's made when there is as low amount of random factors as possible.

My last post here before it's going to an another compub flamewar.
 
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Icarus

aa
Sep 10, 2008
2,245
1,210
I'm still rather apathetic on this issue.

TF2M isn't designed to provide high-level feedback. Its role already starts becoming dubious once a map gets into its beta phase.

While nospread sounds like a good idea in other situations, I find it very difficult to believe it has any significant effect on our own servers. It's just more nitpicking.
 

honeymustard

L9: Fashionable Member
Oct 26, 2009
698
573
You can't balance a map for crits. If it plays well without crits then it's going to play well with crits. If it plays well with crits then it might not necessarily play well without crits.
 
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TMP

Ancient Pyro Main
aa
Aug 11, 2008
947
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Ok this is getting out of hand.

Why should it really matter? I mean, I personally prefer not having crits and damage spread, but hey, I don't think crits will unbalance a map.

And I want everyone to reread this, from a point of view of being not fucking retarded.
You can't balance a map for crits. If it plays well without crits then it's going to play well with crits. If it plays well with crits then it might not necessarily play well without crits.

Sorry Honey, but this argument is literally the worst argument against crits I have ever heard in my life. If a map plays well with crits and plays like shit without them, then the map probably already plays like shit in the first place, as crits in a vanilla really don't make THAT big of a deal of changing the map's full flow (both sides get them).

The topic is downright foolish. I don't care if crits are on or not when I'm testing if a map is fun or if it flows well. I mean, I prefer when crits are off personally (and I really prefer damage spread off as well), but its not going to skew my feedback. But a sour crit to the face won't make me nearly as angry and skew my feedback as a natascha heavy.
 

honeymustard

L9: Fashionable Member
Oct 26, 2009
698
573
Haha, I know what you mean. It's a very inconsequential thing. I personally don't really care either. I'm just pointing out the argument that does exist.
 

lana

Currently On: ?????
aa
Sep 28, 2009
3,075
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Hey, you know what? Fuck it. Turn on crits. Turn on spread. We're map testers but we play Team Fortress 2 for fun. Isn't it more fun to test a map when the miracle on ice moment happens? Wouldn't you like to play on a map where you have memorable moments as opposed to bland constant laboratory settings?