PL Manngrove rc

[Prestige]

looked around rc3 a little. displacements had some pretty bad stretching. didn't notice lowfps until loading up 13 bots, and it was pretty minor. not sure about the spawngates, i like seeing what's out there as blu, especially when i have to wait 90 seconds :O.

there was a lot..A LOT of props. always feel like im running into something.

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/540654438386868144/D4CFD73A98E0792BBD8188BDEC95DA88A0AC39C2/ was splashing a heavy through there
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/540654438386863860/0850EB7257F2FF8A968C2E769BE86B849064FF57/ got stuck at the end there, barrels seem frozen (guess you were going for that "stuck" thing)
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/540654438386867068/BA8C6842D574A5497D9C174711D77470514FCCC1/i really like this
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/540654438386870822/E8248884931C9259CE20EB514D43E8C127387D31/ looks like misaligned water texture?
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/540654438386866131/5FB9515E69604232BB718E17C8958CB4B30992A1/ stretched texture, in a few places actually
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/540654438387204021/0BAFC39A1473E1B0056F6EB55A5E0B4DF407314E/ got stuck here trying to go up the stairs
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/540654438387203086/BA17DEF6E54BCAE1EA6D9864A7ED9CE5FC8D63BF/ looks out of place, caught my attention pretty quickly

on the topic of gameplay, it is definitely NOT the most balanced payload map (goes to badwater). way too narrow. it feels like dustbowl/goldrush for the last half. well for the middle, and the first part is a pretty fun opening. just from playing with bots though, but i doubt it's will play much differently.

topic of officialization, seems possible. there are spammy/bad maps in tf2 and payload as a whole is pretty spammy. map looks pretty good, plays alright. dont rly know.

 

[Ælement]

I just feel like explaining stuff so you and Ravage don't get the wrong foot on each others :O

The "Nope" post was a humerous hint to a fact that a lot of mappers here know all too good: That no matter how good and pretty and creative a map is, chances of it going official is extremely little... That is the cruel facts

Also, you should take RaVages aesthetical advice! He is really good with such things

 

[Penguin]

You have too many things going on at once. It is over detailed to the point of being eclectic on the outside, IMO. Which is the same problem with Mountainlab.

 

[R1ghteous]

FYI, final releases aren't the only place for good lighting. I'm guessing from what you've said here so far that you have a decent rig. If that's the case you ought to be compiling with at least -staticproplighting. I do that and -staticproppolys even in alpha.

Consider it done. Its part of the next release. Thanks.

looked around rc3 a little. displacements had some pretty bad stretching. didn't notice lowfps until loading up 13 bots, and it was pretty minor. not sure about the spawngates, i like seeing what's out there as blu, especially when i have to wait 90 seconds :O.

there was a lot..A LOT of props. always feel like im running into something.

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/540654438386868144/D4CFD73A98E0792BBD8188BDEC95DA88A0AC39C2/ was splashing a heavy through there
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/540654438386863860/0850EB7257F2FF8A968C2E769BE86B849064FF57/ got stuck at the end there, barrels seem frozen (guess you were going for that "stuck" thing)
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/540654438386867068/BA8C6842D574A5497D9C174711D77470514FCCC1/i really like this
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/540654438386870822/E8248884931C9259CE20EB514D43E8C127387D31/ looks like misaligned water texture?
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/540654438386866131/5FB9515E69604232BB718E17C8958CB4B30992A1/ stretched texture, in a few places actually
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/540654438387204021/0BAFC39A1473E1B0056F6EB55A5E0B4DF407314E/ got stuck here trying to go up the stairs
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/540654438387203086/BA17DEF6E54BCAE1EA6D9864A7ED9CE5FC8D63BF/ looks out of place, caught my attention pretty quickly

on the topic of gameplay, it is definitely NOT the most balanced payload map (goes to badwater). way too narrow. it feels like dustbowl/goldrush for the last half. well for the middle, and the first part is a pretty fun opening. just from playing with bots though, but i doubt it's will play much differently.

Yeah there are some displacements that stretched pretty badly when I subdivided. I'll be doing what I can to fix it. I actually really like the gates closing and opening fully. It allows the blu team to open gates when they want and close them when they don't want them open. I had considered allowing blu to see out either with a window or using the transparent yellow gates, but opted for the gates that are currently there. As far as blu being stuck inside for 90 seconds I had considered adding some more scenery behind them to help ease the pain of the wait. I will have more player clipping in my next release. No one likes to backup into a prop that has a tiny edge when a pyro is w+m1'ing at them.

Pic1: Im ok with that. If a skilled player can splash by hitting a prop that opens to a target instead of shooting at them and missing its fine. Also im pretty sure you could hit the wall behind the fat heavy for the same effect.

Pic2: The barrels actually explode from the railing above red at last and fall down there. The barrels that were down there disappear.

Pic3: Thanks you can actually cross the bridge or walk on some player clipping I added to the cliff model. Although you can easily fall through the ~100 unit space between them... I had thought about adding a little bit of push where the water was, but it seemed hard enough to cross backwards as is, so I left it alone.

Pic4: Fixed. Thanks.

Pic5: Working on fixing it. Thanks.

Pic 6: Ya there is really no need for that prop to catch you. Ill move it, clip it. or make it not solid. Thanks.

Pic7: You can only really see those if you are in the deathpit, but either way I'll consider it. Thanks.

As far as balance I've actually found it to be pretty well balanced. After watching a ton of demos/sourcetv's/playing myself, and hearing other players feedback the one place that might need a little addition is immediately after the entrance beyond A. If a red team stacks the mirrored house towards the entrance and makes solid pushes towards the battlements periodically it can be hard for the blu team to overcome without the support of a good engi/medic. Although the Blu team tends to win when they make a solid push upstairs, so perhaps this just needs more arrows/guidance. Although, as defense tends to improve more over time than offense I could see that being a potential problem... I'll be keeping my eyes on it. I really like the close fights that take place in the hallway before point C and the finale. Especially when a semi-experienced team is facing an equally skilled team the catwalks/hallways change hands often and dictate how the cart moves below. Quite fun to see/play. The opening is alot of fun (and does play quite a bit differently with real players as opposed to bots. (Bots get stuck near the cap at B, so the fight at A is pretty short if you're playing with bots. I'll be fixing that soon.

Thanks for your feedback sir. Really appreciate you taking the time to post pics too.

You have too many things going on at once. It is over detailed to the point of being eclectic on the outside, IMO. Which is the same problem with Mountainlab.

I like mountainlab. I think 3dnj did a great job. Its certainly one of the prettiest maps in tf2 right now.

When I run throughout this map for the first time, the first point seemed very dizorganiated at the level of detail.

The detail is present at all level of the map, In any case, this can be something very good, but you need a lot of more work on this, the brushwork is very squared and unimaginative, the giants rocks just looks unnatural, there is not transition between the displacement and the model, the part with the water is just copy/pasted from mountainlab. The skybox seems very odd for me because I feel crushed under a pile of building and smoke, whitout any blank zones.

For the second point, it's just the layout of well man, three levels, an hole at the middle with a distillery on the top, please, be more imaginative. Further, the gameplay based on a main corridor with somes small corridors at the sides can be very fade, you are just playing on a choke all the time !

At the third point, you have once again changed the theme, with another main corridor with some others corridors, okay it looks good (less the tracks on the floor and the mono-level).

for the last point, I saw the last point of dustbowl, the same floor level and the same size.

Thanks for having feedback this time. Ill take some time to respond to each paragraph with one of my own. The first point may at first seem disorganized due to its level of detail, but when you really look at the playable area you'll find it to be pretty simple. Three tiers of ground sloping 128 units downward each towards a deathpit. Three buildings set across the path of the track. The main fight happens between the first and second fight and the point is typically lost when the Red team loses the second building. Although, I have seen good red teams win by holding the third building and pushing from it to prevent the blu team from controlling the overexposed large health pack. Most of the detail comes from the vista of the death pit. This was intentional. I don't know how many times I have been in a pl_thundermountain pub as the blu team gets to 3-2 and heard someone say, "I've played this map a hundred times and never seen that view." I wanted to make sure that players have an exciting and memorable experience on my map. Providing a vista on stage one that is fun, looks great, and rewards skilled play does exactly what I was trying to achieve. Though I would love to see (with pictures) exactly what you mean when you say, "...the giants rocks just looks unnatural, there is not transition between the displacement and the model, the part with the water is just copy/pasted from mountainlab." The rocks are found in many official tf2 maps used exactly the same way. Please give me an example of how they transition from the displacement to the model any differently/better. Even in Rexy's new map (which also looks great btw) when you see the model rocks next to the displacement you can clearly see which is which and his models/textures are even custom. That's just how its going to look, and I don't think it looks bad.

It really isn't just the layout of well. There are two houses and stairs that lead to each. In most fights those houses are the primary central points during that fight. I added the third tier to be able to trump the houses. If you play the map with humans it actually plays more like badwater point 2 more than anything where the team that controls the roof that overlooks point 2 wins. Also when you see a big sign on the outside of the red building that says "Redshed Distillery" don't you think you should see a distillery inside? Regardless its part of red's facade that is created as you push from the marshland outside to the distillery inside. Its not so much a change of theme as a progression. In my opinion it adds depth to the story as well as providing a feeling of progress for the blu players as they transition from one area to the next. It's one of the main reasons that traditional cp maps are so fun (in my opinion).

What do you expect exactly? Aren't all maps essentially corridors that connect to larger areas? If you really look at it most maps are comprised of those two things. You can make the hallway snake, bend, curve, flex, gain height, drop, flank, or even teleport I guess... but in the end the hallway is going to lead to another hallway or an open area. The fun and beauty is when you see the corridor change hands as a skilled player masterfully subjugates his/her foes and takes control of the hallway by overpowering or outmaneuvering (or both) his opponent.

As far as the last point. I can see how it looks very similar to dustbowl, but i assure you it plays very differently. I posted this before, but perhaps you overlooked it:

Its pretty equally influenced by both dustbowl and goldrush. I know it actually does look a lot like dustbowl 3-2 but it plays massively different for a few reasons that shouldn't be overlooked:

1. The drop to the pit is one way. If you go down... you're down.
2. The sewer system that is down there connects to both the left and right side houses. (in dustbowl it only connects near the center bridge and in goldrush it connects to the center area as well as having a house that flanks the back right)
3. Manngrove has bridges (in the form of pipe systems) that connects both ways. (In goldrush you have to drop and climb to reach the flank area on the right and the left house has drop that requires rocket/sticky jumping to climb. In dustbowl you can only push on the left and not the right.)
4. The left house in dustbowl requires one to go into the alley or rocket/sticky jump to the otherside. in Manngrove its actually pretty easy for the blue team to pass unscathed across the bridge at the back of the choke. I did this to encourage blu to build/attack from the back of the right house.

I think I'm going to need pictures to illustrate my point better. I'll try to get these to you when I can, or you can feel free to play the map and see how the sewer system that connects the pit, left, and right houses as well as the two way connecting bridges to the left and right house add a positive and new twist on a fight that is familiar.

Thanks for responding with the feedback in any case.

 

[A Boojum Snark]

I like mountainlab. I think 3dnj did a great job. Its certainly one of the prettiest maps in tf2 right now.

I haven't played your map and only looked at a couple screens, but I know what penguin means.
Too much detail can cause an overload of visual noise that distracts the player. You may want to take a gander at this. More is not always better.

 

[tyler]

I've been on my phone lately but I would like to add that I'm not trying to attack you nor is anyone else, I don't think. Someone said that when maps are developed off site and look good we get mad, but that's not where I'm coming from and I want to let you know that was a joke on that person's part.

In reality we just pay close attention to detail (in the general sense, not in the mapping sense) and have a lot of recommendations. Had you developed here (or shared your development here) you'd be getting the same stuff, but as you went along instead of at once.

Also, you don't really need to refute everyone's feedback when you don't agree with it. It's okay to disagree and they don't really need an essay on why. We're familiar with the dominant theories behind mapping and if you don't want to change something then just don't. But remember that as a community that does little else besides test maps over and over, most of which don't leave alpha, we have a pretty damn good idea of what works and what doesn't, so when we tell you something about a certain area it may be born more of first impressions than actual thought. But that doesn't mean it won't be valid (if only somewhat).

I hope this makes sense to you.

 

[bob+M|M+]

I do agree that the detailing is a bit overboard. boojum said it well.

the problem with decking out the entire map with (fantastic) detail, is that you lose those contrasts between important and unimportant elements of the map which can throw people who are unfamiliar with the map off their game.

 

[bob+M|M+]

important elements being - first and foremost, the players. and things like clear choice of pathways. Those things don't pop as much with so much visual distraction.

 

[grazr]

Take everything i say with a pinch of salt as we only played with half a filled server; but, the starting area is very small. This means it's easy for BLU to clear the staging area very quickly with just (at least) 2 ubers. IT also means your map has a relatively mediocre first impression on players. The staging area gives both teams an opportunity to look and jump about and this isn't really exploited by the map author. It's not a necessity; but it's good practice and a waste of an opportunity to ignore.

RED's respawn was very fast in the late game and its proximity to CP3 meant it was very difficult to push CP3 if BLU wiped. It's very much a steam roll until CP3 and then there's a bit of a delay before they capture final because of the travel distance. The travel distance for BLU is fine, but coupled with the fast respawn for RED and RED's proximity to CP3 it's a bit of an advantage for RED.

Final is very easy to clear with the 3+ alternative routes. The final should be the hardest point to take and rarely features more than 2 routes of attack to force a coordinated head on attack by BLU to breach hardcore defences; this also allows RED one final chance to hold out for an extended period of time and take some control back if BLU happened to roll CP's 1-3.

This is excluding the fact that RED cannot defend the cart via blocking which undoubtedly you will fix soon.

The areas could do with a little more variation in scale. Additionally, currently the chokes are easily controlled by demo-soldier spam and the consistant parallel catwalks to the track make it difficult for BLU to ninja push the cart for even small periods/distances; which is related to the scale problem in that CP's 2-3-4 are all very close quarters and force BLU into predictable linear patterns of assault. Even more so between CP's 2-3 than at 4.

Ammo and health drops seems pretty well placed, though. Detail is quite nice, though barrel stacks tend to get in the way around the tracks because of close proximity to the cart.

 

[R1ghteous]

I haven't played your map and only looked at a couple screens, but I know what penguin means.
Too much detail can cause an overload of visual noise that distracts the player. You may want to take a gander at this. More is not always better.

Thanks ABS I appreciate the feedback. I have heard that the map may have enough details to be distracting from a few people and think that there is probably some truth behind it. I responded in the WIP thread to the same comment like this:

1. Payload maps have one focal area that is constantly shifting forward ot backward. As a result the detailing should be centralized around the path of the cart not just control points. This is especially true given that payloads glow when they cannot see the cart directly.
2. A good reason to limit the density of detailing is to prevent fps issues... manngrove is optomized to the point that I never drop below 200 fps. Lots of the examples are from maps that came from release... newer machines can handle more detail with ease.
3. Players threshhold for "pretty" isn't what it used to be. Maps like mountainlab, doublecross, and barnblitz (just to name a few) have changed player perspective on what "detailed" is.
4. When you're attempting to get todays players to take notice and get the reactions I've been getting its not a bad idea to take some extra time to increase the average amount of detail across the map. However it is important that while the primary route is more detailed than the secondary or tirtiary routes.

However on the same token, the detailing probably is a bit much in some areas. I am finding that am having to add more signs/light them better to help players find the best path to take. I will be keeping a close eye on this and, as always, I appreciate your feedback.

 

[R1ghteous]

I've been on my phone lately but I would like to add that I'm not trying to attack you nor is anyone else, I don't think. Someone said that when maps are developed off site and look good we get mad, but that's not where I'm coming from and I want to let you know that was a joke on that person's part.

In reality we just pay close attention to detail (in the general sense, not in the mapping sense) and have a lot of recommendations. Had you developed here (or shared your development here) you'd be getting the same stuff, but as you went along instead of at once.

Also, you don't really need to refute everyone's feedback when you don't agree with it. It's okay to disagree and they don't really need an essay on why. We're familiar with the dominant theories behind mapping and if you don't want to change something then just don't. But remember that as a community that does little else besides test maps over and over, most of which don't leave alpha, we have a pretty damn good idea of what works and what doesn't, so when we tell you something about a certain area it may be born more of first impressions than actual thought. But that doesn't mean it won't be valid (if only somewhat).

I hope this makes sense to you.

I'm sorry if I've given the wrong impression. I didn't/don't think anyone's attacking me. I just thought it was a bit obnoxious when someone had given no feedback (positive or negative) and simply posted something that added no value to the discussion at hand as a response. I appreciate all the feedback that is available, and I would like to thank you again for the link. I knew I needed to set my compile shading options as I progressed, but it never hurts to have a direct link with more detail.

Take everything i say with a pinch of salt as we only played with half a filled server; but, the starting area is very small. This means it's easy for BLU to clear the staging area very quickly with just (at least) 2 ubers. IT also means your map has a relatively mediocre first impression on players. The staging area gives both teams an opportunity to look and jump about and this isn't really exploited by the map author. It's not a necessity; but it's good practice and a waste of an opportunity to ignore.

RED's respawn was very fast in the late game and its proximity to CP3 meant it was very difficult to push CP3 if BLU wiped. It's very much a steam roll until CP3 and then there's a bit of a delay before they capture final because of the travel distance. The travel distance for BLU is fine, but coupled with the fast respawn for RED and RED's proximity to CP3 it's a bit of an advantage for RED.

Final is very easy to clear with the 3+ alternative routes. The final should be the hardest point to take and rarely features more than 2 routes of attack to force a coordinated head on attack by BLU to breach hardcore defences; this also allows RED one final chance to hold out for an extended period of time and take some control back if BLU happened to roll CP's 1-3.

This is excluding the fact that RED cannot defend the cart via blocking which undoubtedly you will fix soon.

The areas could do with a little more variation in scale. Additionally, currently the chokes are easily controlled by demo-soldier spam and the consistant parallel catwalks to the track make it difficult for BLU to ninja push the cart for even small periods/distances; which is related to the scale problem in that CP's 2-3-4 are all very close quarters and force BLU into predictable linear patterns of assault. Even more so between CP's 2-3 than at 4.

Ammo and health drops seems pretty well placed, though. Detail is quite nice, though barrel stacks tend to get in the way around the tracks because of close proximity to the cart.

It was a pleasure playing with you tonight. I wish we had had a more full server with fewer bots. (I'll be fixing that collision where bots get caught on the pylons right outside of red spawn. That, combined with the inability for red to block the cart if the cart isn't moving at an incline/decline, undoubtedly cause more blu wins than normal. Also its always a bit frustrating that bots hardly ever take alt paths so the fights at C were a bit dull and never take doorways at a drop (the sewer exit of blu and the sewer entrance to point D). I will be paying close attention to the things you've mentioned here and as always I appreciate the feedback.

 

[grazr]

Oh, on a final note, it looks like you can jump out the cp_well windows over the track doorway into the main base, when infact you cannot. You should maybe stick with some closed windows even if the open ones provide a better firing LoS for RED (which isn't necassery).

 

[R1ghteous]

Oh, on a final note, it looks like you can jump out the cp_well windows over the track doorway into the main base, when infact you cannot. You should maybe stick with some closed windows even if the open ones provide a better firing LoS for RED (which isn't necassery).

Well one thing that I've seen is that Its a lot of fun when Blu soldier/demo jumps onto the outside of those windows to ward off a sniper that had held them around the corner. Though typically things should function exactly as they look i think those windows are a fair exception as the TF2 player base has seen them on the front of well and knows they cant jump out. Then again I may just let players jump out similar to the window at the middle of cp_badlands. good food for thought in any case.

 

[A Boojum Snark]

I am finding that am having to add more signs/light them better to help players find the best path to take.

That reminds me of something else I noticed from the pictures I forgot to mention. A lot of your indoor areas look rather uniformly lit. A huge factor in player-herding psychology is the illumination of the map, and if you dim down the out of the way or purely detail areas it both adds a lot of visual depth/contrast to the map and helps focus attention.

 

[R1ghteous]

That reminds me of something else I noticed from the pictures I forgot to mention. A lot of your indoor areas look rather uniformly lit. A huge factor in player-herding psychology is the illumination of the map, and if you dim down the out of the way or purely detail areas it both adds a lot of visual depth/contrast to the map and helps focus attention.

Thanks. Ill look over the lighting in "out of bounds" areas. If you have any specific areas of note I would love to hear them.

 

[tyler]

Not just out of bounds areas. Main paths should apoear slightly better lit to herd players down them

 

[Prestige]

the splash thing was just fyi, wasnt sure if you wanted to change it, should have mentioned that i kind of liked it. guess i'll see if i can play it with real people if i have time and reevaluate my opinion.

 

[JBEZORG]

everyone likes it differently. I personally think it's great that the map is so narrow paths. this guarantees fast and hard action.
my opinion

 

[lwf]

The blue spawn pretty boring to be stuck in. Maybe could you add some one way windows on the main door or on the walls?


Weird shadows.

Mirrored writing on the hot air balloon.

Z-fighting.

You may or may not want players here.

The cliff face isn't solid. You will die when falling, but it looks bad while doing it. It may be possible to get past the hurt triggers though with some tricky jumping, perhaps as scout.

TF2 usually doesn't make you jump to enter vents, even less duck jump. If you didn't want that for some reason just being able to walk in might be preferable, or at least being able to simply jump to enter on both ends.

The buildings outside this window appears and disappears as you move in this area. If it's going to be buggy it might as well be removed, showing only the sky.

You'd think one standard "CONTROL POINT" sign when exiting the spawn would be enough, but it isn't.

 

[Penguin]

I do agree that the detailing is a bit overboard. boojum said it well.

the problem with decking out the entire map with (fantastic) detail, is that you lose those contrasts between important and unimportant elements of the map which can throw people who are unfamiliar with the map off their game.

No, the problem is in too many conflicting themes all going on in the same tiny area. For example, it is alpine, but also sports urban brick buildings, which makes no sense.