Basically what you are saying and describing is the basic flaw in Steel gametype, and to what I think, intentional. I think that as the detail becomes more refined, it'll be easier to tell where you because you will have the details to location.
- Thread starter Ezekel
- Start date
Basically what you are saying and describing is the basic flaw in Steel gametype, and to what I think, intentional. I think that as the detail becomes more refined, it'll be easier to tell where you because you will have the details to location.
Well for starters it doesn't help that it's not obvious which route is the fastest to X CP. The spawn itself isn't very refined so you can't tell which area you're actually exiting into. For starters, there needs to be more signs in the spawn area. With Steel it's just left or right whilst here you have these monotonous grey walls and courtyards everywhere with exits into more grey monotonous courtyards. In Steel you can attack B from A so you're not just changing the right spawn exit for left, it doesn't ultimately matter; but it does, it appears, here. You attack A through a primary door and a hidden secondary that exits in a room besides A that isn't obviously a route to A. Then you have to attack B via an entirely different route. Then you attack D behind C, next to E but not accessible... blah, blah, blah. It's pretty confusing. You appear to point to C, then D from C; but for anyone finding D infront of C only C is marked so they can't find D.
The map needs to be more fluid, A>B>C>D>E and RED and/or BLU shouldn't be able to cut each other off by attacking them at a previously contested CP's (BLU have to walk past a number of CP's to E and RED can just intercept them there; it's not always obvious that the fastest route to E is back through A which hadn't been used since B, C or D.
Things that can help are land marks, unique props or set/stack of props that are relatively obvious before reaching certain CP's (like your cardboard box room next to A). If people stumble into a room full of cardboard boxes they know they're near A (If there are no other cardboard box rooms). Your ceilings are pretty high so you could hang banner's with "A", "B", "C" etc on them above doorways, OR you could put letters on the stone pieces the gargoyles are frequently found sitting on, OR you could do a portal/gravelpit style guerilla style spray paint directions on the big stone walls.
Also you still need to address demomen attacking E and simultaniously spawn camping with stickies. Yes, you have 2 exits, but RED can't see the sticky threat until they're either already dead or severely damaged that they have to retreat to the locker and try again, all the while the CP is being captured. The trouble isn't the number of exits but how small they are. A single demoman can cover both exits into E with just 2 stickies per enemy +reserve grenades from his grenade launcher. So if only 2 RED players notice/decide to defend E they can't put on enough pressure to even exit the spawn. 2 RED trying to defend 1 BLU on E before previous points are captured and failing not so much as a lack of skill, is just not right.
The map needs to be more fluid, A>B>C>D>E and RED and/or BLU shouldn't be able to cut each other off by attacking them at a previously contested CP's (BLU have to walk past a number of CP's to E and RED can just intercept them there; it's not always obvious that the fastest route to E is back through A which hadn't been used since B, C or D.
Things that can help are land marks, unique props or set/stack of props that are relatively obvious before reaching certain CP's (like your cardboard box room next to A). If people stumble into a room full of cardboard boxes they know they're near A (If there are no other cardboard box rooms). Your ceilings are pretty high so you could hang banner's with "A", "B", "C" etc on them above doorways, OR you could put letters on the stone pieces the gargoyles are frequently found sitting on, OR you could do a portal/gravelpit style guerilla style spray paint directions on the big stone walls.
Also you still need to address demomen attacking E and simultaniously spawn camping with stickies. Yes, you have 2 exits, but RED can't see the sticky threat until they're either already dead or severely damaged that they have to retreat to the locker and try again, all the while the CP is being captured. The trouble isn't the number of exits but how small they are. A single demoman can cover both exits into E with just 2 stickies per enemy +reserve grenades from his grenade launcher. So if only 2 RED players notice/decide to defend E they can't put on enough pressure to even exit the spawn. 2 RED trying to defend 1 BLU on E before previous points are captured and failing not so much as a lack of skill, is just not right.
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Doctor Paprika
L4: Comfortable Member
- Apr 24, 2011
- 150
- 53
Frozen, I realize my complaints are tied directly to the gametype itself, but Grazr did a good job of detailing the sort of art design issues I'm talking about. This circular CP setup is invariably confusing, but the way the level looks and feels makes deciding which route to take to a given point a total crapshoot if you're not already intimately familiar with the map.
- Dec 16, 2008
- 818
- 246
i checked it out in game. it looked promising based on the screen on the wiki, but the beams it creates aren't animated/lack the ability to add noise like you can with env_laser, so it really just looks more like a laser pistol that can fire in 5-8 directions at once.
I was kinda hoping that the beams created would have noise and would track around the area (like a Plama Ball thingy that you get find in science museums), but no such luck.
have a look yourself, i made a tiny map to test it out. (after you spawn the turn on trigger is to your right):
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/37594515/tesla_test.bsp
I'm messing with it and it seems like something that could work if you set the min/max beams to 1 and then changed it so it's either sparking constantly or sparking for long intervals. Main issue I see is that it wouldn't be able to hit exactly what you want every time I think
map and screenies updated.
give a warm welcome to beta1
*Hugs Beta1*
On a side note, besides This, frozen and haste... what other 72hr maps have been worked on for more than a week? (or will be making it to beta?)
- Dec 16, 2008
- 818
- 246
well there's namicott i believe
personally i'd like to see that medieval pl get finished off that rav made
English Mobster
L6: Sharp Member
- Jul 10, 2011
- 355
- 299
Wasn't that Medieval Payload released with that Community Medieval Update? Or am I thinking of a different Medieval Payload?
That was another map, he is talking about Saxton Hills, which is Ravidge's Pl map (With a cute payload)
My 72hr map is still undergoing work, and would be looking at entering beta soon if i hadn't decided to make it multistage.
Doctor Paprika
L4: Comfortable Member
- Apr 24, 2011
- 150
- 53
I decided to take some quick screenshots to show you the areas that bug me the most (sorry about the gun in the way, did this while eating lunch):
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27652498/cp_gothic_b1a0000.jpg
This cover makes spawn camping very easy. I know I personally killed you, Ezekel, two or three times on your way out of spawn trying to get to C and D through B. If Blu rushes up the ramp to kill the spawn-camper, he can just drop down through that hole nearby and either flank or escape. I don't really have a good suggestion on how to change this, though.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27652498/cp_gothic_b1a0001.jpg
I always think I can jump over to that other side because of that empty part of the floor. I can stand on the tiny ledge leading over to it, so why not there? I would either change the player clip or put a box there so you can tell you can't stand there. I tried to jump over instinctively the first time, hit the clip, slid down the hole, and got riddled with boolit.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27652498/cp_gothic_b1a0002.jpg
This is an epic journey of medium health packs. Starting here, coming out of Blu spawn near B...
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27652498/cp_gothic_b1a0003.jpg
... to here, right next to B...
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27652498/cp_gothic_b1a0004.jpg
... to here, right by the corner leading to E. As a GRU-wearing Heavy, you can get from Blu spawn to E very quickly without losing any health because the medium health packs are spaced so that you never lose more than about 40 HP between them. I know because I did it, over and over, during gameplay, without a Medic or backup, and could get behind Red's lines with ease. When the main battle is focused at C and D, a lone Heavy can follow this route right to E and do major damage.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27652498/cp_gothic_b1a0005.jpg
Even with the boards on it, I still think this is supposed to open at first glance. Also, how are the boards attached? And how would they hold this gate shut? And why is an outdoor gate on the inside of a castle?
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27652498/cp_gothic_b1a0006.jpg
Maybe it's just me, but when I see crates and boxes, I assume I'm supposed to be able to get up on top of them, but there is no way for most classes to jump up onto these. There's a circuitous way going from that little crate to the edge of the tiny wall to the big crates, but I don't see why there can't be another small crate next to the big ones on the left here.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27652498/cp_gothic_b1a0008.jpg
Same problem here. It looks like there is a height progression leading up on top of the crates, but that first crate is too tall to jump up onto. Why not replace the barrel with a small crate?
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27652498/cp_gothic_b1a0007.jpg
I like how these doors open, but when they're all the way open, it's really easy to get stuck between them and the wall while backpedaling. They don't look like they'd stick out far enough at first glance, and when you're between them and the wall and facing away from the door, the door doesn't come into your range of view, so you can't tell what's blocking you. It's not really a problem, but it is very annoying.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27652498/cp_gothic_b1a0009.jpg
Just a beta art design thing, but there definitely needs to be something on those roofs. This looks like a prison, not a castle.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27652498/cp_gothic_b1a0010.jpg.
I think everybody hates this coffin here. The displacements aren't wide enough for the slope to have any real effect on gameplay; they're just sharp enough to get stuck on while strafing, and the dirt texture makes it difficult to see out of the corner of your eye. The only purpose this seems to serve - aside from a visual location for the ammo and health - is to briefly trap players who aren't paying attention. I hear people complain about this literally every time I play the map (at least, every time we get to C).
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27652498/cp_gothic_b1a0000.jpg
This cover makes spawn camping very easy. I know I personally killed you, Ezekel, two or three times on your way out of spawn trying to get to C and D through B. If Blu rushes up the ramp to kill the spawn-camper, he can just drop down through that hole nearby and either flank or escape. I don't really have a good suggestion on how to change this, though.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27652498/cp_gothic_b1a0001.jpg
I always think I can jump over to that other side because of that empty part of the floor. I can stand on the tiny ledge leading over to it, so why not there? I would either change the player clip or put a box there so you can tell you can't stand there. I tried to jump over instinctively the first time, hit the clip, slid down the hole, and got riddled with boolit.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27652498/cp_gothic_b1a0002.jpg
This is an epic journey of medium health packs. Starting here, coming out of Blu spawn near B...
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27652498/cp_gothic_b1a0003.jpg
... to here, right next to B...
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27652498/cp_gothic_b1a0004.jpg
... to here, right by the corner leading to E. As a GRU-wearing Heavy, you can get from Blu spawn to E very quickly without losing any health because the medium health packs are spaced so that you never lose more than about 40 HP between them. I know because I did it, over and over, during gameplay, without a Medic or backup, and could get behind Red's lines with ease. When the main battle is focused at C and D, a lone Heavy can follow this route right to E and do major damage.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27652498/cp_gothic_b1a0005.jpg
Even with the boards on it, I still think this is supposed to open at first glance. Also, how are the boards attached? And how would they hold this gate shut? And why is an outdoor gate on the inside of a castle?
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27652498/cp_gothic_b1a0006.jpg
Maybe it's just me, but when I see crates and boxes, I assume I'm supposed to be able to get up on top of them, but there is no way for most classes to jump up onto these. There's a circuitous way going from that little crate to the edge of the tiny wall to the big crates, but I don't see why there can't be another small crate next to the big ones on the left here.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27652498/cp_gothic_b1a0008.jpg
Same problem here. It looks like there is a height progression leading up on top of the crates, but that first crate is too tall to jump up onto. Why not replace the barrel with a small crate?
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27652498/cp_gothic_b1a0007.jpg
I like how these doors open, but when they're all the way open, it's really easy to get stuck between them and the wall while backpedaling. They don't look like they'd stick out far enough at first glance, and when you're between them and the wall and facing away from the door, the door doesn't come into your range of view, so you can't tell what's blocking you. It's not really a problem, but it is very annoying.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27652498/cp_gothic_b1a0009.jpg
Just a beta art design thing, but there definitely needs to be something on those roofs. This looks like a prison, not a castle.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27652498/cp_gothic_b1a0010.jpg.
I think everybody hates this coffin here. The displacements aren't wide enough for the slope to have any real effect on gameplay; they're just sharp enough to get stuck on while strafing, and the dirt texture makes it difficult to see out of the corner of your eye. The only purpose this seems to serve - aside from a visual location for the ammo and health - is to briefly trap players who aren't paying attention. I hear people complain about this literally every time I play the map (at least, every time we get to C).
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I just played this map and it is great! It's really great looking and fun to play.
English Mobster
L6: Sharp Member
- Jul 10, 2011
- 355
- 299
Okay, just played a few games on gothic_event, and I just have a couple notes:
* For some reason, I could've sworn that CP B was actually A. I stood there, Medic healing me, the entire setup time, and was wondering where the hell the other team was. I would suggest placing a couple extra signs around B telling defenders not to sit here and wait for the other team to come out. Signs marking a route from B to A would be lovely as well.
* Whenever RED won (or the game stalled for a very long time), it was because they held C. I don't know how intentional this is, but there are at least 2 very hard to kill Sentry positions (one in the hallway that leads to D, I believe, and another just behind that building to the left of the point coming from B). At this point, I don't know how easy it is to fix, but 2 Engies can set up a Sentry in each spot and it becomes very hard to take down without an uber. The entire team tends to set up shop on C, and it's quite difficult to get onto E at this point without either falling into the... gooey stuff or getting shot at by yet another Sentry. I would perhaps reduce the metal around the actual cap at C, if nothing else can be done. It just sucks when C remains uncapped for 6-7 minutes 4 games in a row.
E:
Spot 1:
Spot 2:
There is a third which I encountered while taking these screenshots just a little bit further down from that first screenshot. I didn't think to take a picture of it while I was ingame, but it kept BLU from being able to get to either one of those other 2 Sentry positions.
That spot in the second picture's a bitch because an Engie can conceivably set up an entire base there. Soldier rockets can't do enough splash damage to kill it by the time the Engie repairs it, and Demomen can't get close enough due to the other Sentries to reliably kill it. An uber is wasted on the other Sentry nests that always seem to be nearby, and the only thing left is hoping that RED team doesn't know what a Spy is or how to kill one.
* I absolutely loved the combat in the section from B to C. I was Soldier, and it gave me (reasonably) enough room to maneuver around and avoid fire without worrying about hitting the ceiling.
* I would get rid of the thing that keeps you from jumping out of the electric water goo (if there is; it felt like I was being pressed down and forced under water) but slightly increase the water's damage per second so that if you do escape, the afterburn will kill you before you manage to cap E, or you'll be so weak a damaged Medic going back to resupply could reasonably take you out.
* There are a couple areas (I think one of the worst is once you get to the outside part on the path to C) where it LOOKS like you can rocket jump onto a roof, but you cannot. Would it be possible to add a tiny, inaccessible building or extrusion from the wall on the areas you can't rocket jump to so there's a reason why you can't get onto the roof? This isn't really something TERRIBLY important, just something I noticed.
E: Here:
Overall, fun map, though!
* For some reason, I could've sworn that CP B was actually A. I stood there, Medic healing me, the entire setup time, and was wondering where the hell the other team was. I would suggest placing a couple extra signs around B telling defenders not to sit here and wait for the other team to come out. Signs marking a route from B to A would be lovely as well.
* Whenever RED won (or the game stalled for a very long time), it was because they held C. I don't know how intentional this is, but there are at least 2 very hard to kill Sentry positions (one in the hallway that leads to D, I believe, and another just behind that building to the left of the point coming from B). At this point, I don't know how easy it is to fix, but 2 Engies can set up a Sentry in each spot and it becomes very hard to take down without an uber. The entire team tends to set up shop on C, and it's quite difficult to get onto E at this point without either falling into the... gooey stuff or getting shot at by yet another Sentry. I would perhaps reduce the metal around the actual cap at C, if nothing else can be done. It just sucks when C remains uncapped for 6-7 minutes 4 games in a row.
E:
Spot 1:
Spot 2:
There is a third which I encountered while taking these screenshots just a little bit further down from that first screenshot. I didn't think to take a picture of it while I was ingame, but it kept BLU from being able to get to either one of those other 2 Sentry positions.
That spot in the second picture's a bitch because an Engie can conceivably set up an entire base there. Soldier rockets can't do enough splash damage to kill it by the time the Engie repairs it, and Demomen can't get close enough due to the other Sentries to reliably kill it. An uber is wasted on the other Sentry nests that always seem to be nearby, and the only thing left is hoping that RED team doesn't know what a Spy is or how to kill one.
* I absolutely loved the combat in the section from B to C. I was Soldier, and it gave me (reasonably) enough room to maneuver around and avoid fire without worrying about hitting the ceiling.
* I would get rid of the thing that keeps you from jumping out of the electric water goo (if there is; it felt like I was being pressed down and forced under water) but slightly increase the water's damage per second so that if you do escape, the afterburn will kill you before you manage to cap E, or you'll be so weak a damaged Medic going back to resupply could reasonably take you out.
* There are a couple areas (I think one of the worst is once you get to the outside part on the path to C) where it LOOKS like you can rocket jump onto a roof, but you cannot. Would it be possible to add a tiny, inaccessible building or extrusion from the wall on the areas you can't rocket jump to so there's a reason why you can't get onto the roof? This isn't really something TERRIBLY important, just something I noticed.
E: Here:
Overall, fun map, though!
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Dat Chandelier...