f4a
- Thread starter Flame
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I recall a comp match where I wanted to quit because flame joined in halfway through, but i stayed so I would not let my team down. But othertimes, I don't stick around. It's just not worth it.
- Apr 19, 2009
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I think its because a lot (a few? idk) of us after looking over the current situation found that flame's pros out-weight his cons and that he would not be such a bad mod after all. :S (Personally I don't think he should be one but thats just me)
Hi I'm Mr. Pot. You must be Mr. Kettle. We are both black!
I haven't, I don't study an artistic subject.
But that shouldn't stop me from knowing what feedback is good feedback. I listen to people and I consider options. I have actually never even heard the term destructing criticism before you mentioned it earlier, shows how much I knew.
I always viewed all comments as something positive without having to worry if they were hurtful or not, it just never occurred to me that they could be.
Hurtful isn't quite the right word to talk about it. Anyone who gets hurt by criticism of any kind is too personally attached to the subject being criticized. I would go more with 'disrespect', or 'rude behavior', which I feel has been the case with some of flame's criticism.
Tact and bluntness are two different things. Telling someone their map sucks is a step over a line that doesn't need to be crossed in order for someone to get the message that their map played badly.
Many people by now can probably see through Flame's attitude just because they've been around it for months, but a lot of people who arn't used to his sarcasm and tactless approach will interpret his feedback as hostile. Also, some people just don't like to be talked to like a piece of crap.
Being someone who's also gone through an academic art program at degree level i'll throw in my "earned" 2 cents there (not that i havn't been so far) and disagree with you. Constructive feedback doesn't need to be rude or aggressive in order to be true or accurate. In fact feedback is rather mathematical, so "it was crap, shit, it sucks" serve no place in feedback.
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Flame, believe it or not, in a way i actually empathise with you. I used to give feedback in the same way. I was very aggressive in my feedback and i had as many PM's complaining about the execution of my feedback as i did requests to play test and provide the same level of feedback for maps i hadn't gotten around to testing yet.
E.G.
In the end i learnt that not acting like a dick got better responses than ripping into a map heartlessly, without sacrificing the quality of the feedback. I didn't have to claim a map performed horrificly for them to understand that it played horrificly.
If i can learn to not be an arse, and believe me, i was accused of being "elitist" probably more than anyone else on this site back in the day, then Flame can learn to drop the insults and jests that are needlessly incorporated into feedback too.
E.G.
In the end i learnt that not acting like a dick got better responses than ripping into a map heartlessly, without sacrificing the quality of the feedback. I didn't have to claim a map performed horrificly for them to understand that it played horrificly.
If i can learn to not be an arse, and believe me, i was accused of being "elitist" probably more than anyone else on this site back in the day, then Flame can learn to drop the insults and jests that are needlessly incorporated into feedback too.
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- Apr 19, 2009
- 4,460
- 1,722
I think it also is how we present ourselves as a person. I have always seen you as a very kind and calm person and I bet other people see that too. So when you handed out hard feedback people were confused.
Now on the other hand Flame is built with the "tough love" aspect and his posts reflect that. People know he is going to be an ass and I really don't see that changing any time soon. :S
There's so much potential for good in this community if others did the same thing. But rudeness propagates rudeness, and it's so easy for someone to retaliate negatively for being attacked. If there aren't people to set good examples of how to respond to criticism, this community is doomed.
Go over and take a look at Polycount.net, not once will you find the kind of behavior that happens here on a daily basis. These people understand criticism, know how to respond to it, and how to give useful, tactful criticism. They care about each other and the growth of skill and talent. It's a community based on artists who know how to do things right. The same kinds of examples can be demonstrated here if people will put for the effort to show more respect.
Go over and take a look at Polycount.net, not once will you find the kind of behavior that happens here on a daily basis. These people understand criticism, know how to respond to it, and how to give useful, tactful criticism. They care about each other and the growth of skill and talent. It's a community based on artists who know how to do things right. The same kinds of examples can be demonstrated here if people will put for the effort to show more respect.
So. I was taking a jog aroudn the neighbourhood when I heard this argument. Thought I'd speak my opinion as I ran through.
Flame is one of the best players that play TF2 on our server. I know for a fact that if Flame is on the server, and we switch to a new map, people stay in spec and repeatedly click on the door for the team that Flame is on. I know this happens because not only have I done it in the past, but when there are eight spectators and they stay in spectator as long as they can without ever going on the non-Flame team, it's obvious.
This thread is supposed to be about Flame for Admin. So the above means very little. You guys say that his map feedback is harsh and unproductive. Flame hasd given me feedback on the one map I have released, and I've read his other feedback. Sure, it can be harsh. Sure, it can make you want to just quit your map. But that's just him. Flame is a very aggressive, straight-out person. He will tell you what's wrong, and unless the problem is a general, "the layout doesn't work," he gives you pointers. You, as the mapper, have the choice to ignore or take his feedback. And in my honest, selfish opinion, if you can't take somebody else's criticism or comments, no matter how harsh and hurtful they be, you need to man up and learn about life.
What needs to be done to be a successful admin in this place? You need to know about TF2. You need to be active on the forums, the chatroom, and the server. You need to be willing to give time to TF2Maps. Flame fits all of those, but... What do you need to be like to be an admin in general? People need to like you - if people don't like you, they leave or cause havoc in the community. You need to not show any selfish or arrogant characteristics, or go mad with the new power - if you already act like you're better than people, getting more power will simply emphasize that. Flame, unfortunately, fits both. Sure, I'm not Flame. sure, he'll probably disagree with me. But we all know it's true.
Now, I could probably type up another couple paragraphs talking about the other things brought up in this thread to try and end this argument, but I have forgotten what they were and don't want to read through a thread that grows like cells. I've only got one more thing left to say.
Flame should not be an admin. He is here enough and useful enough to be able to host map tests, and he should try not to play too competitvely and dominate in tests, but it is not imperative. The majority of Rexy's statements have been sound and he brings sane talk into this argument, but a vast majority of you are trolling. Super needs to learn to be more useful in his posts. Nik needs to understand that admins can be intimidating. And Nine needs to lock this thread instead of leaving it open just because it's "like a soap opera" and "is entertaining."
Flame is one of the best players that play TF2 on our server. I know for a fact that if Flame is on the server, and we switch to a new map, people stay in spec and repeatedly click on the door for the team that Flame is on. I know this happens because not only have I done it in the past, but when there are eight spectators and they stay in spectator as long as they can without ever going on the non-Flame team, it's obvious.
This thread is supposed to be about Flame for Admin. So the above means very little. You guys say that his map feedback is harsh and unproductive. Flame hasd given me feedback on the one map I have released, and I've read his other feedback. Sure, it can be harsh. Sure, it can make you want to just quit your map. But that's just him. Flame is a very aggressive, straight-out person. He will tell you what's wrong, and unless the problem is a general, "the layout doesn't work," he gives you pointers. You, as the mapper, have the choice to ignore or take his feedback. And in my honest, selfish opinion, if you can't take somebody else's criticism or comments, no matter how harsh and hurtful they be, you need to man up and learn about life.
What needs to be done to be a successful admin in this place? You need to know about TF2. You need to be active on the forums, the chatroom, and the server. You need to be willing to give time to TF2Maps. Flame fits all of those, but... What do you need to be like to be an admin in general? People need to like you - if people don't like you, they leave or cause havoc in the community. You need to not show any selfish or arrogant characteristics, or go mad with the new power - if you already act like you're better than people, getting more power will simply emphasize that. Flame, unfortunately, fits both. Sure, I'm not Flame. sure, he'll probably disagree with me. But we all know it's true.
Now, I could probably type up another couple paragraphs talking about the other things brought up in this thread to try and end this argument, but I have forgotten what they were and don't want to read through a thread that grows like cells. I've only got one more thing left to say.
Flame should not be an admin. He is here enough and useful enough to be able to host map tests, and he should try not to play too competitvely and dominate in tests, but it is not imperative. The majority of Rexy's statements have been sound and he brings sane talk into this argument, but a vast majority of you are trolling. Super needs to learn to be more useful in his posts. Nik needs to understand that admins can be intimidating. And Nine needs to lock this thread instead of leaving it open just because it's "like a soap opera" and "is entertaining."
There's no doubting that Flame gives criticism and it can be good, and he knows what he's talking about--but imagine how much more effective he would be if it wasn't demonstrated in such a negative destructive way. Such leadership would encourage others to do the same, and make him a possible candidate for moderator (as much as I don't want to discuss it because it's not my place at all to say who should or shouldn't be moderator, this kind of discussion can turn into favoritism and bias). But it's so depressing to see people trolling and flaming someone's first map, or first model. People have to start somewhere. Imagine the talent we could have around here if people encouraged those less skilled rather than cut them down with negative comments.
Retroid
L5: Dapper Member
- Aug 25, 2009
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Flame has given a lot of good advice (I'm a lurker - I read a lot) and from what I can tell he's done a lot for the community. I don't hate him but making him admin would be like me putting an electrician in charge of me kids (if I had any). They're two separate skill sets and he really doesn't strike me as the patient, fair type that everybody will respect.
No offence, you may be amazing for TF2 but there are better people out there for this kind of role. They're pretty much completely different jobs and it's not for everyone.
No offence, you may be amazing for TF2 but there are better people out there for this kind of role. They're pretty much completely different jobs and it's not for everyone.
I'm leaving this open because I'd like to believe you guys can respectfully argue out your points and the discussion here will hopefully provide some points by which all members can improve their actions and behavior. There are some significant topics being debated, and I think they should continue to be - things like balanced testing, content vs. delivery when it comes to feedback, and how the community perceives what an administrator should (or should not) be.
Also, Littleedge, I was joking.
Also, Littleedge, I was joking.
What I want to know is what it's going to take to get more people to start showing commendable behavior that can be used and seen and emulated by everyone else in the community. There are lots of young people who frequent here, and playing the 'young minds' card is a little patronizing, but that doesn't excuse the younger emulating the behavior of others. If we don't have people who can be responsible for promoting the welfare of the community, we're going to need a lot of help. Flame is just one tip of the iceberg of this issue, albeit, a very large one.
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