CTF CTF_Cargostorage Alpha_4A

[Eris]

CTF_Warehouse - An open indoors CTF map!

My first offering to this community.

This here is an in development CTF map with an industrial theme. It's currently undergoing active work, so there may be bugs. Criticism and suggestions are welcomed.

Special thanks to Yrr, Wormatty, NickTF and FrostHoneyJuice for helping me with the packing errors.

(The name might be taken, so let me know if I need to change it or not.)

 

[Muddy]

May be worth noting that not only is Warehouse already taken, it's the name of an official map in the game itself.

Also, some screenshots would be nice!

 

[Eris]

May be worth noting that not only is Warehouse already taken, it's the name of an official map in the game itself.

Also, some screenshots would be nice!

Will upload those soon, and I did not know that. I need to find a new name then!

 

[Eris]

I'm unsure of how to get those fancy screenshots most maps on here have, so I just cropped a screenshot from spectator mode.

 

[nickybakes]

I'm unsure of how to get those fancy screenshots most maps on here have, so I just cropped a screenshot from spectator mode, or how to change the actual little name on TF2Maps.net. Maybe I'll just upload a new entry or something.

This will help you get good quality screenshots!

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXB9W6IefNI

 

[SierraStorms]

I'm unsure of how to get those fancy screenshots most maps on here have, so I just cropped a screenshot from spectator mode.

And for map overview screenshots:

 

[Eris]

Annnnd done! Not sure quite where to put the screenshots, aside from maybe this thread or the version history.

 

[Eris]

Test.

Read the rest of this update entry...

 

[nickybakes]

Annnnd done! Not sure quite where to put the screenshots, aside from maybe this thread or the version history.

For this, go to your overview tab (and do the same for the first thread post), click Edit Download (just Edit on the thread post), then Upload Load Files, go to your screenshots folder for steam/tf2, select the ones you want to upload, then click "full image" on each file in the list. This is put each picture into your post.

 

[Eris]

+Decorated the inside with props
+Added more cube-map points
+Added an extra window to the red cap point
*Various minor changes

Read the rest of this update entry...

 

[worMatty]

Hi, Eris. Sorry I didn't come back with any suggestions for your packing problems. I've been very busy at work.

I had a run around version alpha4a today and have some suggestions.

Obvious stuff:

• There is a massive hole in the side of the map where half of the building appears to be missing.

Not obvious stuff:

• Keep your walls a minimum thickness of 16 units to make them look realistic and to stop pyros from being able to flame people through them (if they are twelve units or less). Walls less than 24 units thick will let player models through them so if you have a thin wall and want to stop that from happening, place a clip brush over it to make up the extra bulk.
• Put clip brushes over walls that have details that stick out. Players don't like getting caught on things as they run past them. For props next to walls, build clip brushes that have 135 degree corners so that the player is guided around the object.
• Be careful not to put too many props in the way of the player. Props should be clustered in high densities next to objectives so it draws the player's eye toward them, and for everywhere else they should be in low density especially in unimportant areas. Too many props makes the landscape noisy and confusing for the player, who needs to be able to read it as quickly as possible.
• The catwalk is very narrow. This makes it uncomfortable to play as there is no room to move left or right. Try to keep a minimum aisle width of 256 units which should be more than enough for players to face off in close quarters, unless the route is for snipers or spies and is out of the way in which case it's acceptable since there is some risk.
• Be careful with solidity of props you place in the foreground or in the player's line of sight. If a player has to shoot through or around a prop, then its collision should be exactly the same as the model's actual dimensions. If a player's bullets or projectiles unexpectedly pass through or collide with a prop, it would feel confusing and unfair. Two examples of this are the vertical metal struts that hold up the catwalk, which are currently non-solid but look substantial enough to block shots and hide behind, and the large concrete pipes in the middle of the arena, which cannot be fired through. For the most precise prop collision, use VPhysics. If a prop doesn't have a VPhysics collision model or it's not good enough, you can make your own collision using Block Bullets brushes.
• Props that are purely for detail, especially small props or props outside the playable areas should be made non-solid. This stops players getting caught on them and reduces the file size slightly because there is less collision data to calculate and store.

For reference, players can run up objects that are sixteen units high. Any more and they must jump (might be 18).

Well done on your work so far.

 

[Eris]

Hi, Eris. Sorry I didn't come back with any suggestions for your packing problems. I've been very busy at work.

I had a run around version alpha4a today and have some suggestions.

Obvious stuff:

• There is a massive hole in the side of the map where half of the building appears to be missing.

Not obvious stuff:

• Keep your walls a minimum thickness of 16 units to make them look realistic and to stop pyros from being able to flame people through them (if they are twelve units or less). Walls less than 24 units thick will let player models through them so if you have a thin wall and want to stop that from happening, place a clip brush over it to make up the extra bulk.
• Put clip brushes over walls that have details that stick out. Players don't like getting caught on things as they run past them. For props next to walls, build clip brushes that have 135 degree corners so that the player is guided around the object.
• Be careful not to put too many props in the way of the player. Props should be clustered in high densities next to objectives so it draws the player's eye toward them, and for everywhere else they should be in low density especially in unimportant areas. Too many props makes the landscape noisy and confusing for the player, who needs to be able to read it as quickly as possible.
• The catwalk is very narrow. This makes it uncomfortable to play as there is no room to move left or right. Try to keep a minimum aisle width of 256 units which should be more than enough for players to face off in close quarters, unless the route is for snipers or spies and is out of the way in which case it's acceptable since there is some risk.
• Be careful with solidity of props you place in the foreground or in the player's line of sight. If a player has to shoot through or around a prop, then its collision should be exactly the same as the model's actual dimensions. If a player's bullets or projectiles unexpectedly pass through or collide with a prop, it would feel confusing and unfair. Two examples of this are the vertical metal struts that hold up the catwalk, which are currently non-solid but look substantial enough to block shots and hide behind, and the large concrete pipes in the middle of the arena, which cannot be fired through. For the most precise prop collision, use VPhysics. If a prop doesn't have a VPhysics collision model or it's not good enough, you can make your own collision using Block Bullets brushes.
• Props that are purely for detail, especially small props or props outside the playable areas should be made non-solid. This stops players getting caught on them and reduces the file size slightly because there is less collision data to calculate and store.

For reference, players can run up objects that are sixteen units high. Any more and they must jump (might be 18).

Well done on your work so far.

The hole is there because I've not done anything further, I've only done the red side so far.

I've been attempting to use the props as like... walls, mainly due to it being a warehouse of sorts, although I might end up scrapping that idea.

I'm also unsure of how to fix the thing with the metal struts aside from using a new texture.

The rest, I'll look into. Thanks for the tips!

 

[Eris]

I am very confused right now. CompilePAL has suddenly stopped packing models. I am very confused right now.

All of the models seem to have moved to folders such as "props_construction", versus what they were at less than a day ago.

 

[worMatty]

Assets are organised like so...

Props:
models/props_construction

Materials used by props:
materials/models/construction

Materials that aren't used by props (wall and floor materials):
materials/construction

If you think your assets have moved, you can delete them and reinstall them from the ZIP archive they came in.

 

[Eris]

Assets are organised like so...

Props:
models/props_construction

Materials used by props:
materials/models/construction

Materials that aren't used by props (wall and floor materials):
materials/construction

If you think your assets have moved, you can delete them and reinstall them from the ZIP archive they came in.

I'll probably do that. The directories are a bit off, though. It's moved it to materials/models/props_construction instead of just /construction.

The textures are still working, though.

 

[Eris]

After a bit more investigation, it seems like it's supposed to be there, as extracting the thing into that folder seems to be the default, and what it does anyways in tf/custom. It doesn't explain why it's not working though.

 

[worMatty]

If you can see these assets in Hammer, there's no reason why CP should not pick them up. Could you provide some screenshots of your File Explorer, and a compile log from CP?

 

[Idolon]

Some notes about the (literal) structure of your map:

When a ceiling beam goes into a wall, it should have a direct line down into the ground. This beam, for example, does not. It should line up with a column so that it has something to rest on - that window isn't going to support any weight.

The fact that the door here lines up with the columns nicely is good! However, the column above the doorway isn't going to support any weight, so there isn't any reason to have it there. On a similar note, you have a LOT of columns. You can space out your columns 256, 384, or even 512 units apart and still have something that looks stable (you may need to make your columns a bit larger if it looks weird).

The ceiling beams currently run the long distance of the building, which is generally inefficient. If you look at this exploded diagram of a house (the Eames House, if you're interested), you can see how the structure is a series of short-distance beams, almost like a ribcage.

I recommend basing your design off of a grid. For example, a grid made of 384-unit squares, with 32-unit square columns placed on each corner. If you ever need to make adjustments based on your layout, you can resize an entire row/column sorta like you would with an Excel spreadsheet. Here's that same grid, but with one row resized to be 640 units wide.

This is a lot of information to take in at once, but these sorts of structural systems are really integral to your map's design, both in layout and detailing. It may seem like a restricting system to work with, but I think you'll find that working with these restrictions will really help guide your design. Look at the building that houses Granary's 2nd point for inspiration - it isn't obvious, but it's all based on these grid principles that I've described.

---

As for gameplay, you probably shouldn't be making a CTF map. It's a difficult gamemode to make a good map for, and a lot of people would argue that you can't. If you're making this map as a learning experience, I would recommend switching to KotH or a/d CP. The layout you have is generic enough that you don't really need to scrap anything if you decide to switch modes.

I realize that's kind of a harsh statement, so feel free to ignore me. It's your map, not mine.

You should have properly defined rooms instead of relying entirely on props for walls. Without ceilings, players always have to anticipate people attacking from above. Without doorways, classes with area denial (demo's stickies, soldier's rockets, heavy's minigun) can't block entry to an area nearly as effectively. Open areas with props for cover are fine (See: Granary mid), but they don't make an entire map. Chaos can be fun, but every map needs some amount of structure (even Hightower!).

(An aside: you should make the ceiling higher. If you want an area to feel open, a soldier should be able to do a rocket jump without hitting their head on the ceiling. See: Mannhattan's warehouse buildings, Turbine's mid.)

 

[worMatty]

Your grid method reminds me of Mezzanine floor, @Idolon.

 

[Eris]

Some notes about the (literal) structure of your map:

When a ceiling beam goes into a wall, it should have a direct line down into the ground. This beam, for example, does not. It should line up with a column so that it has something to rest on - that window isn't going to support any weight.

The fact that the door here lines up with the columns nicely is good! However, the column above the doorway isn't going to support any weight, so there isn't any reason to have it there. On a similar note, you have a LOT of columns. You can space out your columns 256, 384, or even 512 units apart and still have something that looks stable (you may need to make your columns a bit larger if it looks weird).

The ceiling beams currently run the long distance of the building, which is generally inefficient. If you look at this exploded diagram of a house (the Eames House, if you're interested), you can see how the structure is a series of short-distance beams, almost like a ribcage.

I recommend basing your design off of a grid. For example, a grid made of 384-unit squares, with 32-unit square columns placed on each corner. If you ever need to make adjustments based on your layout, you can resize an entire row/column sorta like you would with an Excel spreadsheet. Here's that same grid, but with one row resized to be 640 units wide.

This is a lot of information to take in at once, but these sorts of structural systems are really integral to your map's design, both in layout and detailing. It may seem like a restricting system to work with, but I think you'll find that working with these restrictions will really help guide your design. Look at the building that houses Granary's 2nd point for inspiration - it isn't obvious, but it's all based on these grid principles that I've described.

---

As for gameplay, you probably shouldn't be making a CTF map. It's a difficult gamemode to make a good map for, and a lot of people would argue that you can't. If you're making this map as a learning experience, I would recommend switching to KotH or a/d CP. The layout you have is generic enough that you don't really need to scrap anything if you decide to switch modes.

I realize that's kind of a harsh statement, so feel free to ignore me. It's your map, not mine.

You should have properly defined rooms instead of relying entirely on props for walls. Without ceilings, players always have to anticipate people attacking from above. Without doorways, classes with area denial (demo's stickies, soldier's rockets, heavy's minigun) can't block entry to an area nearly as effectively. Open areas with props for cover are fine (See: Granary mid), but they don't make an entire map. Chaos can be fun, but every map needs some amount of structure (even Hightower!).

(An aside: you should make the ceiling higher. If you want an area to feel open, a soldier should be able to do a rocket jump without hitting their head on the ceiling. See: Mannhattan's warehouse buildings, Turbine's mid.)

I'll likely take a few of these suggestions, and incorporate the rest into my next map. The grid one seems like something I would need to practice with, but I'll see what I can do.