CTF haters, why do you hate CTF??

[Mar]

your missing the point. He should be able to do all you mentioned, but without having to spend 2 minutes setting it up.

Teleis and dispensers should be at level 3 from the start with no upgrades.

The engi needs to be less about babying his gear, and he needs to have the lose of his gear not so devastating.

 

[no means nomad]

your missing the point. He should be able to do all you mentioned, but without having to spend 2 minutes setting it up.

Teleis and dispensers should be at level 3 from the start with no upgrades.

The engi needs to be less about babying his gear, and he needs to have the lose of his gear not so devastating.

Time management son. Throw teleporters down and leave them be until you die the first time, then upgrade to level 3. Takes like 20 seconds because it's something you do on your way to the fight.

Teleporters would be way too powerful if they were automatically level 3's with no investment on the engineers part. Forward engineer emplacements would be way too quickly set up.

Dispensers are pretty ehhhhh though. Their build time is absurd, even with wrench hits, meaning setting one up is a liability and a waste of immediate metal that could go to making your sentry gun a bigger threat, or upgrading a teleporter. When time is always working against you the dispenser is often times the biggest waste of it. You're better off prowling for metal than bothering with a dispenser.

Only time I use a dispenser is if I'm out of stuff to upgrade, as a distraction/blockade while I'm running away, or if I'm going somewhere that's hard to reach that I'm not going to leave. They're pretty worthless unless you're super heavily fortified, which is boring. An Engineer that's able to upgrade his dispenser to level 3 probably isn't doing much at the end of the day, and it's kind of weird that Valve has such a big time/metal sink for them. It promotes Engineers as roadblocks rather than versatile threats like the rest of the classes in the game.

 

[Mar]

The dispenser is a great help to the team, and some can argue even better then a sentry gun.

Also, on 5cp push maps, the engi should be able to build his teleporter in spawn and when your spawn changes the teleporter moves up. No one uses engi on 5 cp maps becuase it takes to long to set up stuff and you can't help the team push.

Having weaker gear that builds faster balances out since it's isn't as strong but you can move it quickly allowing the engi to do more then just static defense.

It promotes Engineers as roadblocks rather than versatile threats like the rest of the classes in the game.

You definitely get the point. Engis need to be way less of a road block (powerful sentries) and more versatile which can be accomplished with weaker faster building stuff. Get rid of busy work and the engi will work.

 

[Artesia]

on the engineer topic... I'm hoping they give him alternate buildables rather than weapons as they are his main arsenal. Here's my idea for a Sentry Replacement

Mobile Turret:

-turret that requires a player "man" it. It has no automatic aiming or firing, this must be done by the occupant. Any team member may man the turret, but the engineer can only repair it from outside the turret.

-Turret has it's own weapon that the occupant fires, and must be reloaded with ammo by a engineer

-Turret has 3 upgrade levels, each increasing the firepower

-Turret is able to be moved by occupant, Level 1 about the speed of a heavy (while he's firing), Level 2 would reduce the speed further to 1/2 the speed of level 1. Level 3 renders the turret immobile, sacrificing the mobility for added firepower.

-Sapping the turret disables its weapon systems, renders it immobile while the sap is active, and locks the door trapping the occupant inside.

-Turret protects occupant from harm while it is in operation, should the turret be destroyed the occupant is then able to walk away from the wreckage to fight with is own weapons.


I think this could be interesting, obviously it would need balancing, but it would give the engineer more of an offensive role. And since the turret would have to be aimed by a player, wouldn't be as good at defense as the sentry as it doesn't have the reaction time and can only see in front of where it's aiming. I'm not thinking anything tank sized, more like the size of the payload cart.

Also, what would help this concept would be to give the wrench an alternate fire that would lower a buildables upgrade level, so you could charge in, upgrade your turret to level 3 while you're on the objective, then downgrade it and move on.

 

[grazr]

Or just destroy it and pick up the metal?

I have to say that a man-able turrent was in my thoughts too though. Doesn't seem very TF2'y though, but what do i know? VALVe will probably find a way if it comes to it.

 

[Sgt Frag]

Well, I got a first quick test on my ctf map a few nights ago.

It has large outdoor areas and a front and back exit to each base (basically a large circle)
I made the intel room pretty wide open so engies couldn't tuck away in a corner.

Hoping to discourage turtling.

The first thing that happened was one team had 2 engies build in the intel room.
So I guess fighting turtling is gonna be harder than I thought. Although that team did get 3 caps pretty fast, which is also something I want, fast cap times. If they turn out fast enough I might make it a 5 cap win so if one team gets on a roll they don't win too fast.

Either way, I decided to try something else.
NO BUILD in the entire base I know some people are gonna hate it but it's gonna force engies outside into more strategic positions, or even offensive engies. As there are 2 ways to the base they need to worry about the front and/or back instead of just camping intel.

But I also made one spawn closer to intel so other players can try to defend it better.

We'll see.

 

[Cold]

I think the big thing is that ctf is too slow, you have to pass the spawn rooms in many ctf maps twice, and the intel is usually tucked far away.

I've been working on a map called CTF_Drought. It is very small, and the intelligence is located on the roof. Not only can you ignore the spawn rooms entirely, you can also jump right off the base once you have the intel, circumventing most defenses. Another thing that annoys me about CTF is how long the flag takes to reset. You can have your whole team there and they can just throw Spies at the flag to keep resetting it. I am testing out the viability of a flag that takes 10-15 seconds to return. Hopefully this should fix the aforementioned problem and it is made balanced because of the ease at which you steal the intelligence and the mapsize.

I think one of the main problems with CTF is the maps are designed in a backwards way (Well and 2Fort come to mind) that makes it hard to actually achieve the objective which results in sluggish gameplay. Turbine provides a fresh take on CTF (Although the middle is too open and lacks sufficient ammo packs) that shows that CTF can be fun. I know most of my clannies love playing Turbine.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Would it be preferable for the intel to be located such that it's easy to get to but hard to escape with, or harder to get to but easy to escape with? Right now I'm leaning towards the former, since making it harder to escape the base rather than getting in would seem to weaken the power of a Scout rush, but I want some more knowledgeable people to chime in on this.

 

[Sgt Frag]

I think we're all testing the waters so to speak with ctf.

Looks like there are about 10 different ctf maps in gameday this weekend and each has it's own take on improving ctf.

I no built my entire base, but there are 2 paths and alot of space outside where teams could defend. While nobody was complaining a few people noted that people probably will with the no build.
Didn't make the flag easier to defend but gameplay was fairly quick moving and both teams were scoring points.
To me it made it more fun than 2fort. It wasn't a constant battle just to get to the enemies base. And then another getting out. The flag got capped more in 30 minutes than it ususally does in 2 hours of 2fort. I'd think that would make it more fun and give more of a feeling of accomplishment.

I think that's why people enjoy Turbine (even if alot of people dont). You can actually cap the flag multiple times in a game. Not that you can't in 2fort but it can be harder.

 

[andriod]

Personally i love the challenge that comes with CTF maps

Sorry if this is already said cbf going threw all the posts

But how about a new type of CTF instead of both teams having intel how about there is one intell. It is in a room in the middle of the map. there is a 30 sec time for both teams to set up then, the gates open and the teams try to grab that intel in the middle. The team that grabs the intel has to bring it back to their span to get the capture.

EDIT: And seeing as there is only one person there to take the intel back the rest of the team can stay in the middle killing enemies. Thus reducing the risk of camping. Of course some will argue "What if the whole team is annihilated?" The answer? Multiple entrances that cannot then be used as an exit. eg. having 3 entrances but only one exit.

Problem solved

 

[Terr]

Development is a bit idle at the moment, but I created ctf_spring around the idea that either team could capture a center area in order to gain additional paths into the enemy base. Also, no single sentry can cover all routes to the intel.

It means that even if both teams mercilessly camp their intel room, there's something to fight over that will help turn the tide.

 

[Colt Seavers]

really interesting thread.

i've made my first solo mapping project a ctf. whilst it's only out in alpha, and probably suffers from most the things people hate about ctf, i have two other routes that i can enable to the capture point, and am considering making it a 1 intel, in the middle of the map - if it becomes a turtle fest in its current form.

i shall keep coming back to this thread to re-read peoples thoughts on the gamemode - I personally am a big fan, with the right teamplay

 

[Ravidge]

There has been a lot of interesting tries at CTF since this topic started.

Like Aurora (also has a ctf koth version), Backpier, System and Staging... Probably a lot more that I can't think of right now.

Point is, there are a lot of good CTF maps out already, people just don't play or talk about them... I honestly have no idea what it is that makes people turn away from this gamemode anymore.

 

[Dr. Spud]

There has been a lot of interesting tries at CTF since this topic started.

Like Aurora (also has a ctf koth version), Backpier, System and Staging... Probably a lot more that I can't think of right now.

Point is, there are a lot of good CTF maps out already, people just don't play or talk about them... I honestly have no idea what it is that makes people turn away from this gamemode anymore.

But of those four maps, none of them are standard, vanilla CTF.

I think what turns people away is obvious. Valve didn't make at least one solid CTF map. All three of theirs are... ok.

I think people should take a page from turbine and make CTF maps smaller. Thing is, turbine may be designed well in that regard, but it also bores me to tears (it's the definition of "corridor fortress").

 

[tehn]

I read through almost the whole forum, but there's a lot of pages of good ideas and over all good discussion.

Since I've played ctf a/d I've been thinking of making a map of ctf. though you all have very solid points about ctf that it is Static game play. I think this can be easily avoided by a idea that I have.

The flag always spawns in one room, only in one spot right?
If we make it were it spawns in a few different areas with in the players base, it would become hard for engies to camp all those areas. I know that most won't move there sentry over and over again.

The only problem is that the defending the flag. How would you know where it is?
Making certain rooms for the intel could work but I haven't thought this through since I'm working on other things.
I'm not sure how this all would play out but i'm sure we as mappers can make CTF a rich game type again.

 

[v1ND]

Personally I think Mach has a lot of good things in terms of ctf level design. Lots of ways in to get to the flag but only one main path to get out.
This means that it's a fair bit easier to get in and touch the flag and encourages people to actually go for it.

It makes it easier for the defenders who only have one pathway to defend. Otherwise, it just becomes a scout cap race.

This also means that attackers will generally always know where the flag was dropped and not have to guess where in the enemy base the flag is. Makes pseudo-teamwork in pubs actually possible.

Since there is an alternative way by way of rocket/sticky jumping it encourages demos and sollies to go for the flag as well.

That being said, there are definitely a lot of areas to improve it.

 

[Nutomic]

I read through almost the whole forum, but there's a lot of pages of good ideas and over all good discussion.

Since I've played ctf a/d I've been thinking of making a map of ctf. though you all have very solid points about ctf that it is Static game play. I think this can be easily avoided by a idea that I have.

The flag always spawns in one room, only in one spot right?
If we make it were it spawns in a few different areas with in the players base, it would become hard for engies to camp all those areas. I know that most won't move there sentry over and over again.

The only problem is that the defending the flag. How would you know where it is?
Making certain rooms for the intel could work but I haven't thought this through since I'm working on other things.
I'm not sure how this all would play out but i'm sure we as mappers can make CTF a rich game type again.

There is a custom map, which has the intel on a moving platform (like a payload), so you cant camp it with sentries. Though i dunno the name of the map

 

[Ravidge]

There is a custom map, which has the intel on a moving platform (like a payload), so you cant camp it with sentries. Though i dunno the name of the map

There's actually 2, and I linked both in my previous post!

 

[tehn]

There is a custom map, which has the intel on a moving platform (like a payload), so you cant camp it with sentries. Though i dunno the name of the map

not went I meant though
When captured it spawns in a different area the it was in previous, it doesn't move on a cart. so you got it from room 1 but now it spawns in room 2 after it is captured. Like that

 

[Tapp]

on the engineer topic... I'm hoping they give him alternate buildables rather than weapons as they are his main arsenal. Here's my idea for a Sentry Replacement

Mobile Turret:

-turret that requires a player "man" it. It has no automatic aiming or firing, this must be done by the occupant. Any team member may man the turret, but the engineer can only repair it from outside the turret.

-Turret has it's own weapon that the occupant fires, and must be reloaded with ammo by a engineer

-Turret has 3 upgrade levels, each increasing the firepower

-Turret is able to be moved by occupant, Level 1 about the speed of a heavy (while he's firing), Level 2 would reduce the speed further to 1/2 the speed of level 1. Level 3 renders the turret immobile, sacrificing the mobility for added firepower.

-Sapping the turret disables its weapon systems, renders it immobile while the sap is active, and locks the door trapping the occupant inside.

-Turret protects occupant from harm while it is in operation, should the turret be destroyed the occupant is then able to walk away from the wreckage to fight with is own weapons.


I think this could be interesting, obviously it would need balancing, but it would give the engineer more of an offensive role. And since the turret would have to be aimed by a player, wouldn't be as good at defense as the sentry as it doesn't have the reaction time and can only see in front of where it's aiming. I'm not thinking anything tank sized, more like the size of the payload cart.

Also, what would help this concept would be to give the wrench an alternate fire that would lower a buildables upgrade level, so you could charge in, upgrade your turret to level 3 while you're on the objective, then downgrade it and move on.

Geez, why don't you just play heavy? Engineer is naturally not combat-oriented, and is more about strategic positioning. Ninjaneering is truly the best way to play engy, for fun's sake, but without sentries battle-lines break easily and almost never form. Anyway, I reckon all you need is 3 or 4 intels, near the centre of the map. Like koth, you can't defend something that's in no-man's land, and you could locate the intel somewhere between no-man's land and 'ressuplyination'.