CTF haters, why do you hate CTF??

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by YM, Mar 7, 2009.

  1. YM

    aa YM LVL100 YM

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    I'd like to find out what are the current issues with the capture the flag gamemode are. I've heard a lot that in the TFC days it was one of the more popular gamemodes and now it seems to have degraded somewhat.

    So the question is simple: What do you hate about CTF and how do you think it can be remedied?

    I'm not interested in specific maps although examples can be used if you want but remember: this isn't a "Why do you hate 2fort" thread.

    (Yes, this is future contest research)
     
  2. NightHawK

    NightHawK L3: Member

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    I hate it because people camp the flag. :(
     
  3. mtv22

    mtv22 L3: Member

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    Most CTF maps I play have the Intel in an impossible to reach spot, where it is camped by several engies. Also, maps where you have to walk past the enemy team's spawn make it really hard and not enjoyable.
     
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  4. AWESOME-O

    AWESOME-O L10: Glamorous Member

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    The main problems would be:

    -Most maps goes past the enemy spawn
    -Intel on to hard to reach places
    -Sentry Camping

    (Although sentry camping can be done fine with CP maps also)
     
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  5. AntonJ3000

    AntonJ3000 I am inactive and make horrible maps

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    I dislike them for being so hard, For example 3 sentrys in the intel room.

    And also most people on ctf have a hard time learning the word "Teamwork" so it end up being a fragfest.
     
  6. YM

    aa YM LVL100 YM

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    This is one thing I've noticed, teams tend to be all over the place and not working together, two spawns per team leaves the teams divided and the fact they can then run A) forwards to attack or B) backwards to defend leaves them even more split.

    So teams are running all over the place wich doesn't work well for co-ordination, I guess this is amplified by instant respawn servers because people leave their spawns alone rather than in a small group like when several die over the space of a few seconds but are all lucky enough to be in the same 7-8 secondish respawn wave.
     
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  7. Spike

    Spike L10: Glamorous Member

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    Because ctf maps are static, it's just camping the flag and nothing else. CTF should be like Unreal Tournament series, it's battle all the time, one of the quicker gamemodes I've ever seen.
     
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  8. Ravidge

    aa Ravidge Grand Vizier

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    CTF is dependant on teamplay a lot, most of the time its hard to even get a single medic.

    Comapared to capture points and payload, CTF doesnt have a shifting combat zone (front line) so the action is either spread out or concentrated in 1 spot. The intel should be though to get (of course) but some CTF maps (2fort) are just too heavily fortified. Its not fun to play on offence if the goal of the map is too difficult, so many players go 100% defence duty.

    I think CTF maps worked well in TFC because of the conc grenades, the flag wasn't impossible to reach, and sentries could be bypassed with the speed, defenders could be conced (so that they couldn't aim properly).
    In TF2 we dont have that moveability and if the bases are too large/complex all attacks will fail just because players cannot handle the beatings they recieve inside enemy territory. (Medics are needed) So it forces a team to work together and on most pub servers, that will never happen (exception allowed).

    Solution: make it easier to cap flags, make it the primary goal of the map (right now, defending is more rewarding).
    Design with TF2 playstyle in mind, old TFC designs just doesnt work anymore.
    As an attacker it is very annoying to kill people just to have them walk out the respawn door only seconds later ready to fight again, makes it feel like you are fighting against an infinite army (make it harder/longer to get back into defensive position)

    Its the attackers that make a CTF map alive, so you gotta design to encourage the offensive spark in people :)
     
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  9. Icarus

    aa Icarus

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    Turbine is an excellent example of a good map. Separation of the Resupply and the Intelligence.
     
  10. Mexican Apple Thief

    Mexican Apple Thief L3: Junior Member<br>LEAD FARMER

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    After you destroy the entire team's worth of sentries and capture the flag you get to come back and do it all again. It doesn't really give the sense of accomplishment that moving up in a cp map does.
     
  11. Spike

    Spike L10: Glamorous Member

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    sentries is what makes ctf suck
     
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  12. YM

    aa YM LVL100 YM

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    Could you put together a balanced arguement? Make a point, then give some evidence of it, then explaination why this happens and how it can be stopped??
     
  13. Shmitz

    aa Shmitz Old Hat

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    I will agree that the base areas in Turbine are fairly good, though I think the resupply should have been even further separated from the side route. The sentry locations in the intel room all have at least one weakness that attackers can exploit so that the intel is difficult to over-camp.

    My gripe with the map has always been the middle area. With all exits opening onto a single wall, it becomes too easy for one team to lock the other team into their base.

    I think part of the problem is that the general speed of TF2 is slower than in older generation CTF games. Getting in and out didn't take much time, battles ranged over more ground, and bunny hopping the intel didn't mean moving it only two feet and letting the defenders just stand in the same place to cover it.
     
  14. MungoKing

    MungoKing L3: Member

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    To figure out why CTF isn't fun, think of why a 2 point control point map wouldn't be fun, and then realise why so many people hate hydro =\. I think if someone really wanted to try and make CTF fun, someone should attempt to make a linear CTF map, like granary/well/badlands .etc. Not sure how it would play out right now, but it could actually be a fun gametype... hmm maybe I should not have just mentioned that in the thread >.> <.<
     
  15. Jazz

    Jazz L5: Dapper Member

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    Turtling seems like a common complaint here, so I think I have come up with a possible solution to that...

    Engineers turtle in their intel room because that is where everyone on the opposing team must pass through to get a point right? Well, I think the solution may be as simple as moving the capture room for each captured intel. Let me clarify a little bit here; lets say there are three intelligence rooms and only one intelligence (for Blue Team). Two of these rooms would be completely locked to both teams at the beginning of the round. Once blue scores their first point, a second room would be unlocked, then after the second point is scored a third room is unlocked for the final point.

    For one, this would prevent BOTH teams from turtling in their bases because only Blue team can capture the flag. This would prevent most turtling (there will always be some turtling in any map) and would allow for a more dynamic CTF experience.

    Also, dibs on this idea.
     
  16. Fraz

    aa Fraz Blu Hatte, Greyscale Backdrop.

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    I am a regular on a 2fort instant spawn server *waits for boos and hisses* and yes the spawn time is a little much but it means always one team has the other team pinned inside their base. So I think a quicker respawn time of maybe 3 - 4 seconds could work in helping ctf maps. Running past spawns is bad on all maps (look at borax in todays gameday, the second point was almost uncappable) Sentries do ruin the gameplay by camping, I feel ctf should have more "flow" like when you play mirrors edge you just run and jump and hope for the best, whereas in ctf maps you have to think about where the intel is, the map should guide you there and back.

    To sum up:

    Quicker Respawn times for maps may help

    Less campable intel spots

    Better flow, you shouldnt need to think about where to go too much

    Should encourage teamwork by hopefully adding a dynamic that means one team is more attacking and one team more defending, but have the "defending" team ways to break free and cap.
     
  17. Shmitz

    aa Shmitz Old Hat

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    It wouldn't be that difficult to make it round-based using the TC mechanics. In fact it would be much simpler to do three or five rounds linearly than the 8 possible combinations in normal TC.
     
  18. MungoKing

    MungoKing L3: Member

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    Now ever since I posted that I can't stop thinking about which would be the best way to do it; I think I might start messing around in hammer to see what I can think of soon. Also I want to clarify on my last post; The two CTF maps I played in game day (decay and railways) were actually quite fun, but were still semi plagued by the usual problems of CTF at most times.

    And when you said three or five rounds, did you mean like.. control points or actual rounds like dustbowl?
     
  19. luxatile

    aa luxatile deer

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    I haven't read all the posts, so I'll just throw my opinion out, hoping that I'm not just repeating stuff.

    I think it's very much up to the intel rooms whether CTF is fun or not. Their position is important - they shouldn't be that far back (which they are in 2fort), because it makes it easy to get in and out. They should have many entrances and exits that give advantages to the attackers, NOT the defenders (height, cover, etc. for people entering the room, and possibly a nice quick escape route). There must be NO good sentry spots by the intelligence. If ANY sentry placed in the intel room can be taken down easily, that is good.

    EDIT: And if you have a little place where offensive Engineers can easily sneak in and place a teleporter - preferrably right by the enemy's intel, protected by a grate or something - that will encourage Engineers to leave their base instead of camping, and it's a huge offensive push for the team. For this to work well, places to put entrances are necessary - in other words, spawns shouldn't be in the enemy's most travelled areas.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2009
  20. HojoTheGreat

    HojoTheGreat L5: Dapper Member

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    I've brought this up before, but my issue with CTF has always been, as someone put it well earlier, a static gamemode. Because the both teams have two points of focus (the intel), the game becomes quite linear.

    Each class is forced into a role that they cannot deviate from lest they compromise their level of success. Engineers have anywhere between 2-5 Sentry positions max (on most CTF maps), Snipers are given 1-3 (3 if the mapper was generous) efficient places to snipe, Spies are stuck in a Cat and Mouse match with Engineers...the list continues as such. Yes, it's possible to deviate from these roles, however they are known to be the most efficient so why would anybody?

    I think mapsize also becomes an issue. We get spoiled with maps like Dustbowl, Gravelpit, Well, etc. that all provide large game spaces, both visually and from a gameplay perspective. CTF maps by default must be smaller, and route variability becomes limited.

    LEAD FARMER put it best, it's a rinse and repeat gamemode. It's not like a CP or PL map where your goal is constantly changing. Once you Capture the Intel once, you have to go back and fight through the EXACT same defense, TWICE.

    The only creative solutions I can think of (without putting any thought in, so don't start picking apart the ideas yet) for this is twofold:
    - Multiple Intel locations. NOT multiple Intels, as this causes problems, however 3 separate rooms, likely separated by locked doors that open upon Intel being capped. This adds variety to the gameareas and maintains the general makeup of CTF. Randomized Intel placement upon cap could be interesting as well
    - Persistent Intel Run, possibly Attack/Defend. This one would have serious problems to consider but is still worth mentioning. Basically you have one VERY long map, possibly broken up into stages (which would involve having 1 Intel and Attack/Defend teams), the Intel does not reset. You would have to seriously limit mapspace to limit maneuverability though, otherwise scouts would dominate.

    VERY unfleshed ideas, but there they are.