Discussion in 'Contests' started by FaTony, Oct 8, 2008.
They seem to be moving away from gamemode-specific contests because people don't like restrictions.
The thing is that Special Delivery doesn't really work as a gamemode. The only real fighting happens on the rocket's platform, and even there it's just a spam contest. Who knows, it might work with some adjustments and a good map.
The rocket’s lift is the best thing ever (except that there is too many sniper nests)
Wasn't the last major contest a Payload-only one?
Unless there was some discussion on the Discord (which I never check), I don't really see where your coming from.
It was all discord discussion and it was a decision made because of people how not as many people joined or how people complained. This was true for Connect 5 as well.
Maybe a "Dynamic Details" contest? Where the player can find a number of interactive map elements that affect other things in the map?
Here's an idea: A contest where every entry has to be a mix of two gamemodes. For example, an Attack-Defense map where the final point is a 60-second KotH. It can be as outlandish as you want it to be (Like a KotH / Arena Hybrid) or as simple (5CP Tug of War payload) as possible.
Entries would be judged on a scale of 0 to 100, where 35 points are dedicated to the gamemode's creativity, 30 points to the complexity (The more layers and logic, the better), and 35 to the map design.
It would create more new game modes, and show off the power of the source engine.
Top 3 get the same rewards as always.
After the Back-To-Basics contest, I'd love to see a contest that's a bit more esoteric.
The goal of the contest would be to make a map of an unusual gamemode, such as Robot Destruction, Territory Control, Special Delivery, Mannpower, or PASS Time. Maybe even Training Mode if you wanted to get really off-the-wall.
The duration would have to be longer than most contests, since the reason many of these gamemodes are rare is because the logic is complex.
no its cause theyre bad
Maybe so, but there's a chance that people only think a gamemode is bad because the few/only maps it has are garbage.
Unfortunately, hosting a contest does not guarantee participation.
How about a contest for new gamemodes? or a contest for unpopular gamemodes? and we can release a series of guides in case someone wants to learn how to make a map for one of the unpopular gamemodes, that way we can have new gamemodes that we can use for future contests.
The unpopular gamemodes are unpopular for a reason, I think
For example, Territory Control is unpopular, but it's not a hidden gem. I have no doubt that somebody could make TC fun, but TC just isn't fun.
Considering how many people on this website have created TC maps, I think its no surprise why TC is not popular.
TC is unpopular because:
short rounds that you have to play many of. Breaks flow of the map. Tedious to load in for new round
Restrictive layout that forces you to cram a lot of things in limited space.
Unfun to defend players that backcap. Short captime doesnt help. It's like ctf but you actually have to go back to your base rather than being able to intercept the capper in the middle.
Each area needs to be balanced for many different combinations. bound to be forced to make tradeoff when building layout which ultimately means bad layout
Map that is often too big. The amount of work needed is ridiculous. You might as well make 3 2cp a/d maps with that much workload.
I dont see a contest based on using this gamemode to receive more than one submisson
It's also incredibly difficult to plan out paths between areas if you want a decent number to reduce chokes - you have to make each path viable for both teams to contest, from both sides, and if you don't want to make 18 seperate paths you need to combine routes between separate stage combinations, and it's just incredibly convoluted, difficult and often stressful to do. And when it comes to the middle area(s)... ooo lord it's a mess. Definitely a case of putting more in for a lesser result.
Randomly saw this thread and thought I would throw in some thoughts. For normal contests I agree with the restriction on having to have started a map during it, however, I would like a contest to specifically encourage mappers to go back and finish maps they had lost interest in or got away from. Yes the contest would favor experienced mappers, but, after a decade I have dozens of maps from half finished to rough outlines that I jotted down casually that I can never use in any contest. With TF2 being around so long people have to be sitting on stacks of maps just needing a push to finish one. You could allow any map, of your creation, that has not reached rc status (or possibly beta IDK?) and has not been entered in any contest previously. It'd have the other normal restrictions on content, collaboration, one entry per person, etc. . Maybe call it "The Second Chance Contest" or "The Complete Contest" or something.
In a similar vein you could do an art re-pass contest taking existing incomplete maps, or possibly complete maps, and asking people to change the themes (or complete them if they never got an art pass). Seems like a lot of maps have decent game play but are forgotten for lacking anything unique. If you fear lack of originality maybe you could require at least one custom model in the map. For a name maybe "The Resurrection Rework Contest" IDK?. Might be better to do this sort of thing next year for the Holidays, but, then again excluding Holiday themes could make for more original work.
Please note while I've been around for the past decade I just ghost here occasionally I don't see everything or remember it. You've probably already had contests similar to this but it might be time for another. Also I don't have the time to go through 65 pages on this thread to see if these suggestions are in there. If someone's suggested this before just consider this support for it.
This is just an articulation of thoughts I've had for a while do with it as you will .
I like this idea the most. The Art Pass contest may never happen again, but I think it would be cool if we got a template map to detail.
But old, incomplete maps? Sorry, but... that's not exactly the best idea. Most incomplete maps are incomplete for a reason - they didn't play well. Either they had too many sightlines, or were massively over/underscaled, or... just plain bad, honestly. (I should know - never got a map out of alpha) Sure, every once in a while, you'll run around an old alpha, and it will play well, but most of the time... nah.
So yeah - maybe a sequel to the Art Pass contest, with near-beta versions of featured maps, or a template map... but definitely not unfinished maps.
Meanwhile, this... I mega-disagree with this part. In addition to already having learned hammer, you now have to learn 3D modeling for this contest? That makes it so that only either experienced mappers/modelers or huge teams can join the contest.
Sorry for tearing this idea apart, because I actually think it's way better than my "FuSe GaMeMoDE ToGEthER cONtEsT LawL"
It's all cool man I disagree with some of the things you said too but we all want the same thing in the end a good, fun, original, contest .
First the part I agree with. I realized requiring a custom model would be problematic and limit the field. I was just throwing things out there to address the problem of originality. I mean say, a Japanese retexture of Turbine, could be cool but the reality is without custom content you'd probably end up with a lot of samey maps. Perhaps a better idea would be to provide a few custom assets and require contestants to use at least one but that would be restricting in itself. That and more importantly someone would have to be skilled and willing enough to donate custom content. Maybe have a seperate modeling contest and then a mapping contest that requires use of one of the winning assets? I mean the modeling site is dead now so where would you do it but here anyway? Don't know about the legality of assets though as people can be jerks.
Ok the part I differ in politely...
First like I said a decent amount of my map ideas were roughed out and never got to playtest. Many aren't even sealed they are simply ideas I had that I didn't want to forget but never worked out the particulars. They could end up bad, they could be wonderful, but it doesn't matter because I did work on them and by normal contest rules I can never use them. There wasn't anything bad about these ideas I just had other ones to work on. Even if you just allow unreleased maps that's still a huge amount of content.
As to the maps I did get to playtest those problems you mention are certainly valid, I know them all too well XD, but, that's why I wanted a contest for unfinished maps in the first place. Example I have a cp map. Three times I ripped it completely apart to rescale it. I don't like to often subject my group to untextured/undetailed maps so 80% of it was detailed. It took me weeks of time to rework it. Now the middle and second points play largely like I want but last stalemates bad, the bane of cp maps. Thing is I've determined I have to rip it apart again, for the fourth time, plus I really don't want to cut out another part I like. I know I can fix it but why? I can't enter it in any contest and a cp map isn't as likely to get a lot of attention at this stage in the game. So I work on other things and never finish anything. Yet if there was a contest I could use it in I go "hey I've already got a functional mid and second" I don't have to worry about them I just have to fix last and I don't have to throw away all the work I've done already.
I also have maps that actually played well but have technical problems. My pl map I tested played well (IMO) but I knowingly built it against the "cart must start facing this direction rule" thinking I surely could fix it later using three different methods... yeah I still haven't gotten one to work XD. Then the cart model desyncs from the func_train even though I have the don't desync checkbox checked (it's called something else but I forget what atm). So yeah I have a nice, undetailed, pl layout which, program wise, does not work, yet I know it can because plr_hightower. I simply got frustrated beating my head with a "Hammer", old pun intended .
Anyway I realize you will get some "bad" maps that people just throw in without work because they had them and could, but, is that any worse than the kid that enters his first contest not knowing how to make a map? New or old map people aren't going to submit their worst. At least with the old they will probably have more maps to choose from. If they want to win they should, logically, want to submit maps that had something good about them. If they want to win they should, logically, want to fix any problems the same as with a new map. I don't think any map comes out perfect on the first go so having a reason, a motivation, to work out those problems can't be a bad thing. What's bad is throwing away an entire map that has some, hard fought, working and fun mechanics because another part needs a lot of work to fix. At worst you'll get a lot of entries on maps you've seen (that's why I stipulated one entry per person and no maps that had been in contests before) but if anyone wants to win they will have to fix those problems. You could even stipulate any map submitted must have X amount of new changes, new textures, a point reworked, etc.
Maybe I'm weird but isn't the point of these contests to encourage mappers to map? Yet when we need encouragement most is when a job is tough. It's easy to just throw out a new idea it's hard to stick with something to the end and fix problems (insert genius is 1% inspiration and 99% percent perspiration quote). Yes some concepts are flawed to begin with and cannot be fixed, but, I'm willing to bet most mappers have at least one map that had good parts which was abandoned simply because another part needing fixing.
Queue "Because a map is a terrible thing to waste" commercial . Peace!
...also now I want to Japanese reskin Turbine XD .
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