CP Bazillion RC5

[honeymustard]

Just use a blocklight brush, like in Gravelpit.

 

[grazr]

You could always just brighten your light settings on your indoor lights so the light bleed from outside is less noticable. It looks like they need brightening up anyway. Creepers might spawn in those spawn rooms, which is never good.

 

[Godslayer57]

Some of your detailing outside of the play area is kinda weird as you have a tunnel that leads to nowhere but the hill bhind it etc. Also there is a hole which you can abuse near the truck. You can see me using it near the end of the demo as an engineer.

 

[honeymustard]

Couple of little things I noticed this evening:

Bit of a mish mash of red and blu metal textures here. Not sure if its intended or how it is on the red side. Also there is a set of stairs with a weird/ugly stair texture on the top that none of the others use, might want to change that.

Move these packs so the team entering the door where the camera is will see them more easily.

Other than that it seemed to play well again. I think the lobby is a little bit confusing, though I don't think it's the layout necessarily.. hard to explain at the moment, will leave some better feedback when I have a good run around it.

 

[LeSwordfish]

I think the final point still isnt perfect. I'd recommend 1) removing the staircase of crates, but leaving the hole, so only special-jumpers can get in that way.

2) add a balcony from the drop-down door, so you can counter sentries from there, and can see the room without being stuck in it

3) remove the fall-down hatch. It was cool, but now it takes you from a height advantage to a disadvantage. It's probably too long a route for too little benefit.

 

[honeymustard]

3) remove the fall-down hatch. It was cool, but now it takes you from a height advantage to a disadvantage. It's probably too long a route for too little benefit.

This might be what I meant by the lobby being a bit confusing. The stairs and room with the drop down feel a bit too much. Not positive though! Sorry I'm being vague.

 

[Pocket]

Bit of a mish mash of red and blu metal textures here. Not sure if its intended or how it is on the red side. Also there is a set of stairs with a weird/ugly stair texture on the top that none of the others use, might want to change that.

That's not a RED texture; it's a neutral texture. But yeah, there does seem to be an inconsistent mix of textures there — not just between it and the BLU metal, but between the BLU metal and the stairs with slats in them, which by the way I've never seen used in TF2 before. (It's actually a Half-Life texture that they only recycle the stair-fronts from.)

 

[honeymustard]

I know it's technically neutral due to the red version, but it looks red, so people associate it with red. Valve have used that style of stair before (gorge etc) but yeah it looks dumb usually.

 

[Arnold]

Thanks for the replies guys, again even though last might be confusing there's only 3 ways in or out so if i was to remove the dropdown for example attacking would become impossible. Also the other side functions as a height advantage when pushing out to cp2 for either team.

some changes i'm working on, because the dropdown was kinda useless i'm trying to make it more dynamic.

http://imgur.com/S1LaB.jpg
http://imgur.com/chUNU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/w9jif.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/H1dS4.jpg

With these changes to the dropdown, the left route will not be accessible to classes that can't use special jumps.

This will perhaps make lobby a little less confusing since you'll be able to see where the dropdown leads you. What effect this change will have to attacking last will remain to be seen.

I also changed point so one side is open and you can take cover from the spawning enemy team by using the crates.

I'll fix the bugs mentioned & take another look at the textures.

 

[LeSwordfish]

I really think the dropdown adds very little. It makes the lobby more confusing, and isnt an especially good route.

EDIT: i hadnt seen the pictures. This will improve it greatly, but i dont expect by enough.

 

[grazr]

Drop downs very rarely work well and are only really complimentary in A/D style maps. Working even less in maps with back and forth gameplay like 5cp/koth. This was one of my first criticisms after we played this in a gameday several weeks ago. atleast consider alternatives.

 

[tarmo-]

Drop downs very rarely work well and are only really complimentary in A/D style maps. Working even less in maps with back and forth gameplay like 5cp/koth. This was one of my first criticisms after we played this in a gameday several weeks ago. atleast consider alternatives.

badlands near 2nd spawn
granary near 3rd spawn

dropdowns are good.

 

[DaBeatzProject]

badlands near 2nd spawn
granary near 3rd spawn

dropdowns are good.

This is true, there are dropdowns in both badlands and granary, but there is a difference between those and the one in this specific map.
Badlands: this is just an exit out of the base, mainly used at the start of the round.
Granary: an exit out of the spawn. They could have just put in on the playable level, but my guess is that they either did this because of aesthetical reasons or just to block players from going back in there (which is already inpossible I think).

In this map (Bazillion): The dropdown is used as a sneaky get-behind-the-enemy-lines route and used completely different as in badlands/granary.

 

[honeymustard]

He meant the drop down on granary that goes from the garage to the forward spawn/ramp room (which plays in the same way you described bazillion's)

 

[grazr]

badlands near 2nd spawn
granary near 3rd spawn

dropdowns are good.

badlands dropdown is a ledge, not a hole in the floor and granary's drop down doesn't fall onto a control point let alone CP1.

This dropdown is different in many ways, as beatz already pointed out. It's a drop down onto the final point. It's a drop down with fall damage and it's a drop down that has almost unanimously been criticised negatively. It doesn't add anything to the map...

 

[Arnold]

Well dropdown was never meant to be a superior route, i don't want a last cp that's on even ground for attackers/defenders. I want something different and some things will work better than others. It seems that a lot of players on tf2maps don't like any change at all.

Anyway, the dropdown can now also be used by defenders to jump up, the attackers will be able to fend off sentries from there. I know lobby can be confusing but players that play the map a little more get used to it quickly enough so i'm going to keep it kinda confusing because i believe it will benefit from it in the long run.

I'm willing to do changes but please understand that i do not want to resort to tried and tested formulas. Anything that's different will put you out of your comfort zone at first and obviously most people will hate that because they have to change the way they play. (this also won't help the confusion)

I know this probably won't be a favourite on tf2maps, I do appreciate all your help however but just try to understand my point of view.

I would also like to remind everyone that the map has undergone massive changes from a1

Also grazr did you see the screenshots i posted and does that change your opinion in any way?

 

[LeSwordfish]

I appreciate the sentiment of trying new things... but tried and tested ideas generally work. Making a map of substandard ideas, in the spirit of being new and edgy is as dim as wearing a sweater made of holly since no-one's done it before. Many of the cool and individual ideas in this map have been tested and, sadly, found not to work. You've tried fantastically: dont cling to bad ideas for nostalgias sake or individuality's sake.

 

[Arnold]

Well apart from the dropdown, which is being worked on, i feel every other aspect is unique and isn't broken. The map isn't an extreme change either, just enough to make teams approach each cp differently. If i truly wanted to be edgy i'd make it so cp2 is only accessible trough water.

I also think ideas are never bad, only the execution is.

 

[honeymustard]

I had a long run around the lobby and it's not really as complex as I first thought, I guess it really is a case of just learning it. The thing that probably throws most people is:

You've got these stairs here, and then there are stairs to the left which serve the same function (or connect the same areas anyway) and basically sandwich the door at the back. And the wall that I'm pointed at cuts off the little alcove, which gives the lobby (the impression that it has) a lot of small areas. What I was thinking was moving the stairway into this little alcove (so you couldn't see the stairs in the left area in the screenshot at all) or removing the little wall that separates the alcove from the left area (and maybe move the stairs so they come into where the alcove area is). Also the drain overlay on the right is huuuge. Anyway it wouldn't be a big change but it might help it flow a little better, and you wouldn't be left with two staircases that are mirrored (sort of). Hope that made some sense. I can probably draw some better pictures..

edit: here I drew a stupid picture:

Basically leave the area highlighted red as a room that focuses solely on the exit door, and the stairs can swing round in a z shape. Then the room at the back can be used to get to the top floor. This way is gives the lobby (from top to bottom) a room/area structure like "up - exit - up" rather than "up - exit - up - alcove space" god this makes no sense i'll shut up now.

also the pipes here aren't on the wall:

 

[Arnold]

http://i.imgur.com/o2CqQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/wFPFC.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/AywcM.jpg

this should fix some of the confusion and it removes one route inside the base