Balancing Natascha

[MrAlBobo]

I can make the same observances the other way around.
Sasha does X, someone shoots the enemy and they don't take full damage because of wrong aim. Enemy needs to be shot again.
Natascha does X, someone shoots and kills the enemy because it's near impossible to miss someone under the effects of slowdown.

generally speaking it tend to be more effective to argue in favor of everyone being skilled equally...In which case anyone that misses substantially with the minigun really needs to practice basic aim...

That said I tend to agree with the person who said natascha needs a complete overhaul. What I would like to see is a minigun with 10-20% damage reduction and a resistance or immunity to knockback. A heavy that couldn't be thrown around the map with the air blast or FaN would be worth a small damage reduction. This could be taken to many degrees, the heavy could just have a reduced movement when hit by these knockbacks. Or he could just be immune to vertical movement and slide horizontally across the ground. Or even complete immunity to knockback.
Then this could also effect other forms of knockback as well, I can just picture an ubered heavy wading into a sentries stream of bullets completely unaffected. Though I think this should be limited to when the heavy is spun up.

 

[A Boojum Snark]

I didn't mean missing with the minigun -_- I was emphasizing Shmitz's point about Natascha being a team help weapon. It makes OTHER people able to hit better.

 

[MrAlBobo]

I didn't mean missing with the minigun -_- I was emphasizing Shmitz's point about Natascha being a team help weapon. It makes OTHER people able to hit better.

ahh...that point makes alot more sense thinking in that sense <_<

Though I still say missing as an example is flawed

 

[owly-oop]

I can make the same observances the other way around.
Sasha does X, someone shoots the enemy and they don't take full damage because of wrong aim. Enemy needs to be shot again.
Natascha does X, someone shoots and kills the enemy because it's near impossible to miss someone under the effects of slowdown.

Actually i've seen some shots miss because of natascha. Someone shoots a rocket ahead of the enemy, but he gets hit with natascha so the soldier's prediction is off now.

Same with any other projectiles

 

[Shmitz]

I didn't mean missing with the minigun -_- I was emphasizing Shmitz's point about Natascha being a team help weapon. It makes OTHER people able to hit better.

This is exactly what I was trying to say. I think here that it's important to not argue that everyone's skill is the same. Many of the weapon alternatives are designed so that in the hands of someone not good at being an offensive powerhouse with a class has an easier time being a support player. That is to say, it's easier to help other people do their job better. Bonk and Jarate are great examples of this.

I have a hard time killing any normal-speed class with Sasha. I don't know what it is, but I can train my minigun on them for five or six seconds and it doesn't seem to do anything to them (as opposed to role reversal, and I round a corner, see a heavy and die in 1.5 seconds). Even if I lead my aim, I have to unload a crapton of bullets into someone before they die.

With the slowdown effect on Natascha, I only have to hit them once, and then the sniper in the corner or the pyro on their heels has a much easier time dispatching them.

 

[MrAlBobo]

This is exactly what I was trying to say. I think here that it's important to not argue that everyone's skill is the same. Many of the weapon alternatives are designed so that in the hands of someone not good at being an offensive powerhouse with a class has an easier time being a support player. That is to say, it's easier to help other people do their job better. Bonk and Jarate are great examples of this.

See...this is the reason I think everything should be considered in terms of equal skill, I really don't believe that there should be weapons optimized for those less skilled, as that basically results in...well...this *looks at thread*
Everyone who has played alot of heavy favors the minigun, everyone who only sometimes/ rarely plays the class prefers natascha...

Not to mention that if equal skill is not taken into account you can say virtually anything and it will be technically correct

I mean...there is nothing wrong with natascha being a support weapon, but it should still have a skill curve, and reasons why the "better" players would want to use it

 

[Shmitz]

I actually think it's pretty good game design to provide options that are optimized for those that are less skilled. First, it lets a less skilled player practice with a class without being a liability to their team. Second, it encourages people to branch out to other classes rather than pigeonholing them into one or two. This ends up being a good thing if you join a team and there are already four scouts, but that's the only thing you're good at. Going as a mediocre but still useful heavy is going to still be a greater benefit to your team than being that fifth doublejumper.

 

[MrAlBobo]

I actually think it's pretty good game design to provide options that are optimized for those that are less skilled. First, it lets a less skilled player practice with a class without being a liability to their team. Second, it encourages people to branch out to other classes rather than pigeonholing them into one or two. This ends up being a good thing if you join a team and there are already four scouts, but that's the only thing you're good at. Going as a mediocre but still useful heavy is going to still be a greater benefit to your team than being that fifth doublejumper.

True...though I personally recommend people learn to use all the classes instead of having ways for them to get by...

 

[A Boojum Snark]

If you are going to consider everyone on the same skill level (a high level) then everyone will be snipers headshotting everyone else the moment they see them and th- wait. that's CS.

 

[Caliostro]

Pfft, most offensive pushes involve an uber. Good luck defending against that with a Natacsha and its oh so useful slowdown. By the time it becomes useful you're dead. If you survive an uber, you'll want to pump as much damage into the recently vulnerable foe while the reload. Natascha is so mediocre there's no real scenario to put it in. The heavy performs well at soaking up enemy fire and dealing moderate damage whilst your team pushes past you to the objective hoping you took most of the flak. Its effects perform negligably, and is outclassed in any area's it might otherwise perform well in on mutual grounds.

The only time i ever get killed by one is when the heavy is health buffed and i didn't have full ammo. Where Sascha would simply have killed me just as quick anyway. If Natascha is in a position to perform how it was intended, with no anti-class to nullify your presence, then your team would have steam rolled the enemy regardless.

Your argument sucks. Namely because you have no coherent argument.

Against an uber Sasha is just as effective as Natascha. They're both useless. The only things that slow ubers down at sentries, pyros, and if I remember correctly, FaNs.

As for the rest, a nice healthy dosage of "learn to play" ought to fix you right up. As I said before, while defending with a decent team, Natascha's slowdown can pretty much assure nothing but ubers gets by. For all effects, it's a death grip. Learn to use it.

 

[owly-oop]

Sasha does push back ubers. Not by much if they're running at you, but it does.

You keep saying "learn to play", but you say natascha is a team reliant weapon. You don't need to slow your enemies down if you could just have them dead faster.

 

[grazr]

Your argument sucks...

You obviously didn't read it properly. The slowdown is of little inconvinience as people make out. It is not a death grip. It doesn't cause people to die unless they are already significantly damaged. Anybody of medium skill will have a corner at hand for cover. And even if they don't, they can make it to one because the damage done is significantly less, so your survival rate goes up as you have to get hit to be effected by it. You can either use the extra time to deal more damage to the heavy and kill him or turn around and use the extra speed to take advantage of the fall off damage. The chances of which are in your favour because the minigun is so inaccurate. If you're close enough to get killed by Natasha, you're close enough to get killed by Sasha. (with or without assists)

Target is damaged a lot by Sasha, flanked and killed almost instantly by team.
Target is damaged a medium amount by sasha, target is flanked and manages to take out either you or the flanker and/or escape.

This is my experience both as and against heavy.

Natascha is a joke. I can't take a Natascha heavy seriously. You would think underestimating a class would result in folly. The basic benefits of slowdown are negligable, and irrelavent in close combat due to damage compensation. and even more negligable due to the reduced damage.

But i do like Albobo's Idea of knockback immunity, as it compliments the effects of the weapon.

edit: Although my experience of Natascha on dustbowl is a little more highpraise than anywhere else i have experienced it. But then again, as i previously stated it depends on the make up of the enemy team. Natascha performs well shooting into open area's, exactly where you'll find snipers.

 

[Caliostro]

You obviously didn't read it properly. The slowdown is of little inconvinience as people make out. It is not a death grip. It doesn't cause people to die unless they are already significantly damaged. Anybody of medium skill will have a corner at hand for cover. And even if they don't, they can make it to one because the damage done is significantly less, so your survival rate goes up as you have to get hit to be effected by it. You can either use the extra time to deal more damage to the heavy and kill him or turn around and use the extra speed to take advantage of the fall off damage. The chances of which are in your favour because the minigun is so inaccurate. If you're close enough to get killed by Natasha, you're close enough to get killed by Sasha. (with or without assists)

Target is damaged a lot by Sasha, flanked and killed almost instantly by team.
Target is damaged a medium amount by sasha, target is flanked and manages to take out either you or the flanker and/or escape.

This is my experience both as and against heavy.

Let me break this down for you.

At close range, Sasha has an estimated dps (damage per second) of 500-540, while the Natascha has a DPS of 320-360. This seems extremely relevant till you realize the practical difference of how long it takes to kill someone:

At close range:
Fully buffed Heavy (450hp) - Sasha: 0.9 - 0.83 seconds; Natascha: 1.4 - 1.25 seconds. Difference: 0.5 - 0.42
Unbuffed Heavy (300 hp) - Sasha: 0.6 - 0.56 seconds; Natascha: 0.94 - 0.83. Difference: 0.34 - 0.27 seconds
Unbuffed Pyro (175hp): Sasha: 0.35 - 0.32 seconds; Natascha: 0.54 - 0.49. Difference: 0.19 - 0.17
Scout (125hp): Sasha: 0.25 - 0.23; Natascha: 0.39 - 0.35. Difference: 0.14 - 0.12

Now go grab a stopwatch....... I'll wait.....


...Got it? Good. Now check how long those times are. At most, against a fully buffed heavy, it's half a second of difference. Anything under another fully buffed heavy, the difference is basically nonexistent. Even against an unbuffed heavy, it comes down to "who shot first"/"dodged more". Meanwhile, the slowdown means you'll have more time to hit them, and consequently do more DPS. Just for reference, Natascha slows enemies down approximately to their crouching speed... Slow.

So first thing we got: At close range the only real advantage Sasha has is against another buffed heavy. Everything else the damage difference is negligible. The slowdown is not.

At long range the heavy is not much of a threat due to damage fall off and large cone of fire, and at least with the Natascha, you can slow your opponents down to a crawl, making them easy pickings for your team.

At medium range, Sasha has an estimated DPS of 50-300, while the Natascha has an estimated DPS of 30-200. Again, not much of an apparent difference, but let's look at how long it takes to kill someone.


At medium range:
Fully buffed Heavy (450hp) - Sasha: 9 - 1.5 seconds; Natascha: 15 - 2.25 seconds. Difference: 4 - 0.75
Unbuffed Heavy (300 hp) - Sasha: 6 - 1 seconds; Natascha: 10 - 1.5. Difference: 4 - 0.5 seconds
Unbuffed Soldier (200hp) - Sasha: 4 - 0.67 seconds; Natascha: 6.67 - 1. Difference: 2.67 - 0.33
Unbuffed Pyro (175hp): Sasha: 3.5 - 0.58 seconds; Natascha: 5.8 - 0.88. Difference: 2.3 - 0.3
Scout (125hp): Sasha: 2.5 - 0.42; Natascha: 4.12 - 0.63. Difference: 1.62 - 0.21

Bigger difference here! Mostly due to the Minigun's huge natural cone of fire. That said, the only significant difference again is against another heavy. Everyone else averages out at around 1 extra second... Which seems like a lot till you remember the Natascha slows them down more than 1 second... Meaning, more damage.

So we ascertained a few things:

- They both kill just as fast at close range.
- They're both almost useless at long range, with the Natascha coming on top still retaining the ability to slow enemies down for your team mates.
- At medium range, the only time it matters is against another heavy or fully buffed soldier, if you're missing.
- The Natascha slows down target to a crawl, meaning any team mates you have can add "their own DPS" to yours for the extra second or so it creates.

The obvious conclusion (or at least obvious to anyone with a fully functional brain), is that the Sasha is better for offensive purposes or if your team sucks, where you'll mostly have to rely on doing damage fast, while the Natascha is better for defensive purposes or used as a coordinated "double team" with another team mate to easily "stack" their DPS on top of yours due to the massive slowdown.

This isn't an opinion, it's data. It's statistic. If you still wanna complain the Natascha sucks you're demonstrably wrong.

Final thoughts: CRY SUM MOAR with a side of L2P.

 

[owly-oop]

You fail to realize that in tf2 even a half of a second can make a difference. What happens if you're fighting a soldier? he'll have time to fire another rocket.


As i've said earlier, why slow down enemies when you could have them dead


also stop assuming he is "crying" and that he can't play and you must assist him to "learn2play". it makes you look like an immature troll from steampowered

 

[grazr]

junk... At medium range, Sasha has an estimated DPS of 50-300, while the Natascha has an estimated DPS of 30-200. Again, not much of an apparent difference, but let's look at how long it takes to kill someone. ...junk

Lets take a look at this as this is the important bit.

Doing tests of 2 heavies standing and shooting at each other is a huge difference to actual gameplay. Your stats are for the most part redundant. Gameplay is not 2 classes stood opposite each other shooting each other until one dies. Players will duck, dodge, jump and take cover, bullets will miss.. bullet spread can play in your favour or out of it.

- They both kill just as fast at close range.

What i said

- They're both almost useless at long range,

What i said

- They're both almost useless at long range, with the Natascha coming on top still retaining the ability to slow enemies down for your team mates.

Only if a bullet hits, which, at long range, might be once or twice, maybe 3 times before the target takes cover. If he even considers the situation dangerous. Overall effect is negligable.

- At medium range, the only time it matters is against another heavy or fully buffed soldier, if you're missing.

Completely circumstantial. In your made up scenario.

- The Natascha slows down target to a crawl, meaning any team mates you have can add "their own DPS" to yours for the extra second or so it creates.

This again is circumstantial, and completely reliant on the randomness of bullet spread. It's like relying on a crit. The slow down is a percentage of the targets normal speed. Assuming that you are successful in slowing down an enemy with accurate shots. The damage applied to the target is comparable only with multiple players appling DPS and could otherwise be considered balanced if it didn't rely on all the circumstances playing in the heavy's favour. When at the end of the day Natascha results in more damage being applied to yourself, and puts the killing blow in question. The general skill level of other players is such they can handle themselves against enemies without them randomly slowing down 25% for a second at infrequent intervals.

At medium range, Sasha has an estimated DPS of 50-300, while the Natascha has an estimated DPS of 30-200. Again, not much of an apparent difference, but let's look at how long it takes to kill someone.

That (at best) 100 hp difference is the equivelant of more than a single shot from any weapon (other than an explosive device which itself has to reach the target). Unless there are more than yourself and one other team mate applying damage to this enemy in this extra second, by your stats you've let him live. It's also safe to assume if an individual is taking damage from more than 2 players, it wouldn't matter if you were weilding a sasha or Natascha as the applied damage would far exceed the slowdown that could have been applied.

Nor does patronising people make your arguement actually stronger. But prove that you can't compile a fully valid arguement.

 

[A Boojum Snark]

Anybody of medium skill will have a corner at hand for cover. And even if they don't, they can make it to one because the damage done is significantly less, so your survival rate goes up as you have to get hit to be effected by it. You can either use the extra time to deal more damage to the heavy and kill him or turn around and use the extra speed to take advantage of the fall off damage.

and they can't retreat behind a corner if you are using Sasha? I don't know where you get the idea that the "distance covered per amount of damage" is larger with Natascha than with Sasha. The damage reduction is only 25%, whereas the speed reduction is definitely more than 25%, making the enemy take MORE damage while covering the same amount of ground.

That said. This whole argument has been ridiculous and stupid. Nobody seems to understand the idea that a lot of the alternate weapons are situational things. You shouldn't use one or the other all the time, and yes there are many times where Natascha is bad. But outright saying it sucks and should never be used is folly.

It's excellent against scouts (I personally believe this was the primary purpose for it, given the ongoing scout-vs-heavy theme valve had in the update) and it's also great on any map with an intel where the goal is to keep the intel from moving, not so much to kill the enemy.

p.s. edit for the ninjapost: stop focusing on the spread of the weapon and how the slowdown won't work well at range. niether of them are terribly useful at range. it's not a natascha problem.

 

[owly-oop]

but if you're cool like me (aka not you) you can kill good scouts


/me smirks


[/joke]

 

[grazr]

That said. This whole argument has been ridiculous and stupid. Nobody seems to understand the idea that a lot of the alternate weapons are situational things. You shouldn't use one or the other all the time, and yes there are many times where Natascha is bad. But outright saying it sucks and should never be used is folly.

Well my point is Sasha has certain tactics it's useful at applying in certain situations but Natascha's supposed role's blur with Sasha's as Sasha's effectiveness comes across ~equally, give or take. Which i'm assuming is why this thread even exists. Natascha's role/effect needs to be emphasised slightly more. That said i have had enough of this arguement, i've given my suggestions. I'll leave it at that.

 

[Caliostro]

Nor does patronising people make your arguement actually stronger. But prove that you can't compile a fully valid arguement.

You have yet to reply to any arguments. You've just stuck your fingers in your ears and went "NANANANANA! NOT LISTENING!"

 

[Psy]

Natascha would be so much more useful if the user could gain speed from the class they're shooting.