Arena maps: A rant.

[Snipergen]

How the hell would you make lumberyard cp? It's only sized for 1 cp :/

 

[YM]

How the hell would you make lumberyard cp? It's only sized for 1 cp :/

by building more of the map for other CPs, this is why I don't think it will work, no one has the drive to add a whole 2 more points to each side, I doubt valve has either. turning a cp map into arena is far more likely because it can be done in a single day since you're pretty much only removing stuff.

 

[Username]

Exactly, and that's why they're of lower quality. I'm guessing ctf_well took valve way less time to make, and it showed. After they reorganized it and changed it, I think it's one of the better ctf maps out there. In the same way, forcing them to make new content for cp_lumberyard would mean that new content is geared directly towards the cp_ gametype. So I believe it'd have the same high quality as the other cp_ maps Valve has made. And if Valve doesn't have the drive to add two more cap points (then mirror them for the other side), how would it have the drive to make a new map? I don't think "drive" is the issue here.

 

[Hawk]

They said on the TF2 blog that they do intend to make good use of the new alpine environment... so we'll get new Alpine maps for sure, and they'll be better.... brand new, not made out of that arena map. I'm really excited to see what they cook up, and I hope we see something "Alpine" in the next batch of maps.

 

[FaTony]

Look at arena_hydro. It's not "just decompiling a map and switching entities around". It's recognizing that arena could quite possibly be the solution to the constant stalemates of hydro we've been looking for. It's not a job a mapper puts month of sweat and tears into, like tc_meridian or ctf_Aerospace. It's more of a "Hm, this might work, I'll give it a shot" kinda job.

Thank you so much, Username! You are the only one who completely understand me.

So for the love of god, stop wasting all your energy fuming at people doing something you don't completely agree with

Brilliant!!!

1. People that decompile and recompile - the thieves
2. People that create worlds - the mappers

So I guess I belong to group 3.

3. People who create world and modify other worlds without stealing - mapping darkside
These guys can create awesome maps and fix other maps without decompiling.

I know hardly anyone plays hydro, so why not change it to make it better? I think it is ok if it is just entity swapping.

Not all maps have to be massive masterpieces. A few little simple maps are nice, too. Besides, isn't the most important thing that the map is fun, not whether it took months to make?

If modifying worlds is what they do, and they love it, I say let em.

if they do it, either to get reference or to fix broken gameplay/glitches, but they should always credit the maker of the map.

By them allowing someone to change there maps the community gets to see how the map would play in arena mode without being able to blame valve about the smallest mistake or bad flow of gameplay.

So true.

And remember, we are talking about freedom of expression.

Now for a totally different question: Would you object to somebody decompiling arena_lumberyard and turning it into a cp_ map? Personally, I'd like to see it done, hopefully by valve.

I can make in... *counting* 10 minutes

 

[A Boojum Snark]

Personally... I feel arena maps shouldn't be made period, regardless of method.
Arena is a horrible scourge valve has placed on TF2 and they need to be smacked for doing so. I mean honestly, how many servers had sudden death disabled because so many people disliked it? Then valve thinks it's a good idea to form an entire game mode around it?

Contributing to it makes me a sad panda.

 

[MrAlBobo]

personally, i find arena is quite useful for when there are less then 6 people in the server
i mean, very few maps are playable and with good gameplay when there are not very many people in the game

 

[A Boojum Snark]

Arena gameplay may be "balanced" for small numbers, but it's no better than low-numbers normal play. They are both far from being how an actual 24 man game plays out, and that's where the problem lies.

Having come from playing Natural Selection, Arena is unbelievably saddening, because it is appearing to be the exact same situation as when Combat mode was added to NS.
NS and TF2 both had the same problem: low player count makes for unfun game. The solution in both: create a new game mode more suited for low player counts by making it primarily deathmatch and removing the core element of the normal game modes. Then the new game modes are no better at getting servers going because they are so drastically different from the "real" game that a lot of people don't like them, along with other people ending up loving the new mode and don't play the "real" thing anymore.
The result: community fragmentation, mapcycles that annoy people, and servers going from full to dead within one cycle.

 

[samn]

Fatony, by map conversion standards your arena_hydro was pretty awful, I remember seeing large healthpacks lying around

 

[FaTony]

I remember seeing large healthpacks lying around

Is that bad?

 

[Uriak]

Depends. It lessens the need for a medic or engie in the team. Create some hot spots in the map. Let those who barely escape alive a chance to fight back.

But if there are several of them it could broke the game perhaps. By example, how is a scout supposed to take down an heavy camping the healthspot ?

 

[grazr]

Arena certainly has it's purpose, don't get me wrong. They can fill a server, but then, so do a lot of other larger levels.

In level design terms i don't hate arena and i have no objection to people creating them. Heck, this is a good oppotunity for novice level designers to get some practice and see what they can do without having the stresses of creating the wholey more complicated dustbowl and payload setups. Basically "the new guy" on the forums doesn't have to make an idiot out of himself by saing "i'm making a dm box map for TF2" because he can atleast turn that into something worthwhile, if he chooses to put the effert in of course.

As for remakes, they should not happen. So you think you can make something play better? Ultimately people like us have no place deciding this and as has been said a thousand times, if it is to be done, get permission. If you want an arena version of a Valve map, the most sensible course of action is to send a request email to valve, if they get enough, heck they'll probably do it; they made cp_steel official for the same reasons.

But why bother. (I don't mean why bother sending valve an email, i mean.. changing a maps gamemode).

Make your own map. It's infitinitely more satisfying, infinitely more gratifying and a respectable work effert. Going into a map and ent-editing for purposes of simply changing it's game mode isn't going to earn you salvation or respect, especially in a community like this. People want to see original work and this is to a lack of better words a customisation site, not a Valve maintenance site. We're not here to fix Valve's broken produce, or anyone elses; that's their job. We have our own job as custom level designers. Personally ent-editing someone elses map is not level design, there is no design involved and the level is already there.

If you've resorted to creating alternative game modes for existing maps by other people then you probably need the practice in making your own anyway, and if you have any intention of releasing your own map then i'd advise to get cracking; because we're all waiting in eager anticipation! These maps don't get fumed, atleast not untill the person responsible demands for a bigger response from the community than he initially recieved, thereby forcing peoples strong opinions on this usbject onto himself.

I guess the saying should go, why try to fix something that may not even be broken when you can make something new that's better.

 

[Username]

First of all, I actually enjoy arena thoroughly. I think the bad blood comes from people trying 32 man arena servers. No. Just no. Arena is meant for a max server size of 18-20. And the real question that decides whether you like arena is simple: Can you have fun while you're getting your bum handed to you? If not, then move on. 50% of the time, you're going to be on the losing team. And that means yes, you'll be sitting out some. Use the time to discuss tactics with your team. On smaller servers, you never have to sit out for long unless you didn't play intelligently and work with your team.

As to grazr: Yes. Arena remakes aren't the same as normal maps. And yes, making your own map is much more satisfying. But some people don't have the time or inspiration to make their own map. Or an existing map could be their inspiration. What I was asking is why people are being flamed and degraded for choosing to remake a map. I don't think remakes are reflective of a good mapper. But that doesn't mean I can't respect someone's personal choice. I'm no mod, but some of the remarks leveraged at those people doing remakes, especially those aimed at FaTony, would be put in the "flaming" category by me. If someone's doing a remake, and you don't agree with them, do you really need to say something along the lines of "You're not a real mapper", or "Remakes are the slime of the mapping community"? Even if you're provoked, there's no reason to fall to their level. Why not just encourage them to put more time and individuality into the map? Or better yet, not reply at all?

 

[Shmitz]

I'm no mod, but some of the remarks leveraged at those people doing remakes, especially those aimed at FaTony, would be put in the "flaming" category by me. If someone's doing a remake, and you don't agree with them, do you really need to say something along the lines of "You're not a real mapper", or "Remakes are the slime of the mapping community"? Even if you're provoked, there's no reason to fall to their level. Why not just encourage them to put more time and individuality into the map? Or better yet, not reply at all?

FaTony doesn't get flamed because he makes remakes or decompiles. He doesn't get flamed because he uses HL2 textures. He doesn't get flamed because he makes maps that give gross advantages to particular classes. He doesn't get flamed because the quality of his work is only a hair above "my first map".

People flame him because he never ever listens to advice or criticism, never tries to grow and improve as a mapper, and is only concerned with receiving the positive recognition he thinks he deserves simply for being himself. He acts like a child when people don't praise his work. I can definitely sympathize with the frustration this causes otherwise well-meaning members of the community.

On the other hand, I completely agree saying nothing at all and ignoring him would be far more productive in this case.

 

[grazr]

But some people don't have the time or inspiration to make their own map.

In this case i would ask why they chose to open hammer in the first place and then go on to join a level design forum.

"I don't have a lot of time" is and excuse i've seen time and time again for the production of aim maps in cs. Regardless of their level of inspiration. I don't mean to sound harsh but if you don't have enough time then i would advise getting a hobby you can commit sufficient time to. For ones own sake..

When i go back to university i wont have time to design levels. So i'll have to stop. I'm not going to try to justify my existance in the level design community by modifying other maps in ways like this. Of course i'll remain active on the forums to try to help others and even learn more myself.

 

[FaTony]

never tries to grow and improve as a mapper

Hey, hey, hey! Now that is truly wrong!

 

[Snipergen]

3. People who create world and modify other worlds without stealing - mapping darkside
These guys can create awesome maps and fix other maps without decompiling.

Wait what? Create maps?

There are only 2 possibility's FaTony, you take mapping serious or you don't.

 

[Acegikmo]

I generallt don't like it when people steal other's maps and changes the gamemode of it, unless they have permission to do so from the author of the map.
And converting a map to arena maps is ok as long as it's your own map you're changing.

 

[Username]

*sigh* Once again, I'm cursed with seeing both sides of the issue... How about this scenario? My current job is scanning and converting all the blueprints of schools for a school district into PDF files. One day, while looking at an overview plan of a school, I see it could make a good map. So I copy all the PDFs onto a thumb drive and use the blueprints to recreate the school's layout, and turn it into an arena map. This took no thought, no inspiration to make. Yet wasn't it an act of creation? I'm not creating something unique. Yet can't I call the map my own?
Say I took an enormous amount of screenshots of hydro, and painstakingly recreated the map in hammer. Is that any better than decompiling? What is it you have a problem with, the decompiling, or the reuse of ideas?

 

[FaTony]

I'm completely confused.