Arena maps: A rant.

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by Username, Aug 26, 2008.

  1. Username

    Username L2: Junior Member

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    First things first. What is up with all the arena remake hate? People are getting flamed for turning a map they like (or dislike) into an arena. Why? What's so wrong with people tweaking old maps to fit with the new gametype? The arguments I've seen so far are
    1) It takes no effort.
    2) It's stealing from the map's creator.
    3) It's "just decompiling a map and switching some entities around".
    4) It's "not a real map".

    ...
    So?
    Your point is?
    Yes, it's extremely easy to make an old map into an arena map. But who says all maps have to be month long processes? It's just as much a creation, even if it took less effort. I honestly think none of these mappers so far have made arena maps just for the sake of making arena maps. Look at arena_hydro. It's not "just decompiling a map and switching entities around". It's recognizing that arena could quite possibly be the solution to the constant stalemates of hydro we've been looking for. It's not a job a mapper puts month of sweat and tears into, like tc_meridian or ctf_Aerospace. It's more of a "Hm, this might work, I'll give it a shot" kinda job. So yes, in a way, they aren't "real maps". They're not epic masterpieces designed with painstaking detail by a dedicated artist. They're funnies, comic strips, political cartoons, but pieces of art nonetheless. And like political cartoons, they seem degrading to some. But in reality, they're just an opinion, a one-off. They may be smaller and, dare I say, cheaper than most custom maps, but they're just as much a contribution to the community as any other.

    So for the love of god, stop wasting all your energy fuming at people doing something you don't completely agree with and spend your time doing better things. Like mapping. Or reading a book. Or anything.
    I swear, there's no need to throw a temper tantrum. :glare:

    Edit: Removed redundancy.
     
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    Last edited: Aug 26, 2008
  2. Snipergen

    Snipergen L13: Stunning Member

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    I think I have a clear view about this finally.

    1. People that decompile and recompile - the thieves
    These guys don't take mapping seriously and just mess with hammer. If ANYTHING, how terrible or shameful it even is, reaches a server (and preferably has their name in awesome brushwork written ALL OVER THE MAP), than these guys are satisfied.
    Don't forget they make clan maps too with the secret rooms.


    2. People that create worlds - the mappers
    These guys take their hobby serious, they start from scratch and use the props and textures, or even make their own content, and make a wonderful map. It takes these guys a few months to get a finished product. It takes in all their free time. Than the map is finished, and they see 1 or 2 servers playing it because the file size is over 9000. But hey, they are ok with it, they didn't steal or make an orange map, they made a piece of art. The only satisfaction they need is self respect that they made a great map for a great game, not ruining it for the community with spamming crap maps, no, they just make 1 perfect map.


    So, for me, these are the possibilitys. I know what mapper I am. What mapper are you?

    *puts on sunglasses*

    YEAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH
     
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  3. samn

    samn L4: Comfortable Member

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    Decompiled and recompiled maps aren't necessarily bad maps with silly things scrawled all over the place, that is a huge generalisation...
     
  4. Zmathue

    Zmathue L2: Junior Member

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    .
     
  5. YM

    aa YM LVL100 YM

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    Quoted again for truth.

    I just know that I'd be absolutely furious if someone decompiled any of my maps and rereleased them after slightly modifying them. Its much similar to the issue of overpaints thats common in the digital art scene, someone takes someone elses work and without permission they paint over it and say its their own, more often then not the original artist is upset by this and its a really frowned upon practice now.

    With permission decompile/recompile is fine.
    Without permission decompile/recompile should be punishable by a short drop and a sudden stop.

    So a plea to anyone who wishes to alter an existing map that isn't theirs originally: seek permission, then when you have it proclaim it loudly and proudly to avoid agressors.
     
  6. samn

    samn L4: Comfortable Member

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    Personally I don't mind if someone else takes my map and modifies it. When I release something I usually provide the source (in the case of mapping, the VMF file) so that others can look at what I made, how I made it, learn from it and point out things that I'm doing wrong. If they want to re-release a map I made thats fine, as long as I am given credit for the original design.

    Not everyone can be expected to follow this philosophy so it is still advisable for you to seek the permission of whoever made the map. Valve generally don't seem to mind people modifying their maps, and I just can't imagine them getting upset about things like pl_heights or cp_2fort.
     
  7. MrAlBobo

    MrAlBobo L13: Stunning Member

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    I have an issue with this...valves maps tend to be larger in filesize then most custom maps...so...these being decompiled and recompiled tend to not only be a waste of effort but also take forever to download...and only to get a slightly different version of something you already have
     
  8. cornontheCoD

    cornontheCoD L7: Fancy Member

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    hmmmm, I dont know what to think about it. Snipergen seems to feel very strongly about this. I understand if the mapper would be mad about their original work being changed, but I don't see why people won't at least give it a chance. I know hardly anyone plays hydro, so why not change it to make it better? I think it is ok if it is just entity swapping.

    eh, I tried to come up with a metaphor to compare it with, but it didnt work :laugh:
     
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  9. drp

    aa drp

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    I emailed Valve a few days ago regarding decompiling their maps and modifying them and then releasing them under a different gametype or mode.

    Whatever Valve's stand is, it will also stand for TF2Maps.net

    I will update the site's rules when I get a reply.
     
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  10. Shmitz

    aa Shmitz Old Hat

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    I don't see a problem with the original creator of a map to take a portion of it and convert it to a different play style, such as arena. However, the way I look at it, that is their decision to make and theirs alone. They are the ones who came up with the original design, and the ones who understand that design enough to know if it can or should work with a different game type.

    So if the original designer makes the modification or grants permission, it's fine because they've made that decision. If someone else makes it, that is unethical, unoriginal, and contemptible.
     
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  11. TheBladeRoden

    TheBladeRoden L7: Fancy Member

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    What he said
     
  12. Rad

    Rad L1: Registered

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    Edit: Oops, wrong topic. I had multiple windows open

    On my opinion, I think it's okay as long as the original mapper is fine with it. I don't see anything wrong with experimenting with making previous maps new gameplay types. Not all maps have to be massive masterpieces. A few little simple maps are nice, too. Besides, isn't the most important thing that the map is fun, not whether it took months to make?
     
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    Last edited: Aug 26, 2008
  13. VelvetFistIronGlove

    aa VelvetFistIronGlove

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    As a general rule, I'm strongly opposed to it. But with the stock Valve maps, I don't have a problem with it ethically. To me they're just another part of the SDK, like all the props and materials. In which case I judge the result by the care and effort and respect for the map and gamemode that's gone into it, just as I would a fully original map.
     
  14. Laz

    Laz L7: Fancy Member

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    CSI Hammer?

    I don't really mind the whole thing. they do whatever they have to do. some people enjoy it, so be it. I personally wouldn't get the same satisfaction from reworking some else's map, then I would from building an entire multi-stage map from scratch.

    I know why I put in the effort. cause creating worlds is what I do, and I love doing it.
    If modifying worlds is what they do, and they love it, I say let em.
     
  15. cornontheCoD

    cornontheCoD L7: Fancy Member

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    Okay, I get what you guys are saying. But what about this compared to valve texture re-colors/modifications?:confused: I don't know how most people like it or not, but I don't see much of a difference between the two
     
  16. Uriak

    Uriak L8: Fancy Shmancy Member

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    As someone said above, I don't have ethical problems too with remixing/modifications of stock maps. Of course I don't have the same view for custom content made by amateurs. Even getting a single texture would not be correct in my opinion (the numbers of time I was told to "borrow" palm trees from egypt or meridian :p - I always rejected such an idea, even for a private map).

    Though, the distinctions between mappers and stealers is irrelevant, imho. Sure there are some highly criticable dudes. The distinction would be in the aim of a mapper
    ->provide something to play with (enjoyable if possible), from a totally crazy new gamemode, to a variations or adaptation of know things
    ->provide a personnal vision of a map (with it's story and layout) A "world"

    Of course most maps are a mix of these two. That scales from recompiled map like pl_dustbowl to custom madness as meridian and aerospace. In between stand custom maps with not so custom content. And because players do seek a mix of it, the sucess is unpredictable. I have to say with honesty, that "impressive" maps are given a warm welcome on our servers, but gameplay wise most of them aren't played for long. The "greatest" success of world crafting and gameplay would be egypt at the moment. People involved for months into their projects should be aware of this and either consider they'll be satisfied with critic approval or center their work around excellent gameplay.

    Remember although there are still some custom servers with "vanilla rules" (no fast respawn, 24 players, no 24/7) which don't include achievements/rainbow crazyness maps. Keep the good mood :)
     
  17. Shaar

    Shaar L3: Junior Member<BR>toboruin

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    I personally don't like the idea of people decompiling maps and making a few minor tweaks, however, I don't mind it, if they do it, either to get reference or to fix broken gameplay/glitches, but they should always credit the maker of the map. I like the way that TBR's edit of "Orange X", they say "This was created by *Insert creators name here*, Edited by *Insert editor's name here"
     
  18. Username

    Username L2: Junior Member

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    Now for a totally different question: Would you object to somebody decompiling arena_lumberyard and turning it into a cp_ map? Personally, I'd like to see it done, hopefully by valve.
     
  19. YM

    aa YM LVL100 YM

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    I hope it doesn't happen. and I hope valve don't do it.
    So far when valve have changed the gamemode of a map they've made poorer jobs of it and I'm generally against remaking other peoples maps (valves or otherwise) even if you DO have permission.
     
  20. Zmathue

    Zmathue L2: Junior Member

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    I'm sure valve, being a video game company, tested all of there maps as arena mode way before the patch. Hydro and 2fort probably did not test well and they decided not to release then because people would criticize them about the levels they love being changed in a way very few would enjoy them.

    By them allowing someone to change there maps the community gets to see how the map would play in arena mode without being able to blame valve about the smallest mistake or bad flow of gameplay.