A video of the TF2 Beta

[Artesia]

so you prefer a game of paranoia where you have to constantly spin in hopes of getting him before he gets you.

I usually get backstabbed out of their cloak not when they're disguised.

My philosophy would be, invisibility should only be effective, if the enemy isn't really looking. If the enemy knows you're there, and is looking for you, they should have a way to root you out.

It's kind of like if the spy were simply slipping through shadows from alley to alley. No one can see him right? but if I hear a gunshot, maybe I'll turn my flashlight on.

Not giving us a way to detect a spy other than randomly shooting teammates and corners of rooms, and letting the spy backstab so quickly out of invis is just giving them free kills. And saying that you can counter him by constantly spinning around to look behind you isn't a counter, its paranoia and it isn't fun to play like that.

I'm not saying give is a big button that makes them all uncloak, but we need something better, that will let us find them. Jarate is the closest thing we have, but the cooldown is way too long to effectively look anywhere... its more of a luck thing for cloaked spies.

I wanted the scout to have an emp watch or something, that on a 10-20 second cooldown could emp a small area... A smart spy should still be able to avoid this, but it would give us a way other than fire (which now they're taking away) to sweep areas of spies.

 

[c-106mc]

so you prefer a game of paranoia where you have to constantly spin in hopes of getting him before he gets you.

I usually get backstabbed out of their cloak not when they're disguised.

My philosophy would be, invisibility should only be effective, if the enemy isn't really looking. If the enemy knows you're there, and is looking for you, they should have a way to root you out.

It's kind of like if the spy were simply slipping through shadows from alley to alley. No one can see him right? but if I hear a gunshot, maybe I'll turn my flashlight on.

Not giving us a way to detect a spy other than randomly shooting teammates and corners of rooms, and letting the spy backstab so quickly out of invis is just giving them free kills. And saying that you can counter him by constantly spinning around to look behind you isn't a counter, its paranoia and it isn't fun to play like that.

I'm not saying give is a big button that makes them all uncloak, but we need something better, that will let us find them. Jarate is the closest thing we have, but the cooldown is way too long to effectively look anywhere... its more of a luck thing for cloaked spies.

I wanted the scout to have an emp watch or something, that on a 10-20 second cooldown could emp a small area... A smart spy should still be able to avoid this, but it would give us a way other than fire (which now they're taking away) to sweep areas of spies.

I dunno what game you're playing, but in Team Fortress 2 the spy has a cooldown on the cloak, a couple seconds if I recall (3 was it? or 2?). So it's not like they can uncloak stab you and cloak again in a few seconds. Those precious seconds where you uncloak (and make an audible sound) is all the enemy needs to know to turn around.

Also, with the suit the spy is limited to close-quarter combat, his knife sucks in a head-to-head fight, so most will flail about trying to facestab you, a few will cloak and run away. If you're worth your salt you can predict the spy's path pretty easily (ie, you beat the crap out of him and he's running away, he'll gun for a health kit).

 

[Artesia]

I'm assuming he came from cloak, assuming when this happened I was in a clearing... knew there was a spy, and was turning quickly repeatedly to find him... I didn't let my back to one area for any length of time.

Also saying that you probably won't get facestabbed isn't comfort. I find "facestabbing" ridiculous, Ive found a spy before and was shooting him and got one shotted by a lucky facestab. The whole point of backstab is to sneak up on the enemy, allowing it from the front while you're being shot at by someone is ridiculous.

And allowing a found cloaked spy to go from visible (being shot) to invisible so fast basically means you either have to be perfectly accurate, or to spam the entire area in hopes you hit him.

when you shoot a cloaked spy, if you can't light him on fire anymore, than his cloak should go opaque for a few seconds before he can fully recloak.

 

[Psy]

You're just butthurt from being backstabbed. If the Spy managed to cloak and get away then he shouldn't be penalised for your incompentance.

 

[Caliostro]

I usually get backstabbed out of their cloak not when they're disguised.

Then you officially suck because currently the cloak is loud enough to be heard IF YOU HAVE MUSIC ON. Coupled with the fact spies have an agonizing second while they're decloaking where they can do nothing but hope you don't turn around, and you have to actively TRY to get killed more than once in a while by "uncloak and stab".


That said, it's a fair trade off. More sneaky spy, less chance to back out of a fuck up alive. It may not seem like it, since so many noob spies forget they have a revolver, but the revolver is one of the spy's most fundamental weapons, so it's fair enough that you only trade it for the ability to be less "spycheckable". Notice, LESS, not "impossible to-". Spychecking is so absurdly easy as it is... I rarely die to anything other than my own fuck up as is. The suit just makes it slightly less stupidly easy to spycheck.


That said, if you can throw your sandvich as an heavy, THAT can get pretty OP unless it comes with a cooldown or something... The gloves of running urgently seem awesome, but I prefer the version where they just gimp your damage while they're active. You can then use them for transportation at the cost of reliable melee (which the heavy is better than everyone else at).

 

[LordNor]

Ambassador is shite. I'd rather have the Revolver any day.

False

 

[Artesia]

This was a long time ago Caliostro, but recent enough I still hate spies. It was before the spy update at least.

 

[himmelstoss]

@OP: That stuff looks pretty drastic. I don't expect the community to exactly embrace some of the changes that the update will bring... :/

 

[J4CK8]

False

True. I only have it equiped becuase I rarely play spy. 90% of the time it won't give the headshot crit. You have to be dead on perfect with the headshot, and since most people have a latency difference of around 40, it's hard to get it perfect.

Most of the time I get lucky headshots when aiming for the body while running away.

 

[Caliostro]

This was a long time ago Caliostro, but recent enough I still hate spies. It was before the spy update at least.

09-13-2009, 03:11 PM

You posted it today... What am I missing...?


That said, there's a line between "I dislike them" and "they're overpowered". One is an opinion, the other is a fallacious factual claim.

LordNor: Prefer what you will, but statistically the Ambassador is inferior in almost every situation.

 

[c-106mc]

Back on track, the only thing I didn't like frmo what I could see, was the gloves of running urgently, or at least, the fact that you lose health while wearing them. I would think doing less damage would be more appropriate, but whatever.

 

[owly-oop]

Flame suit looks useless. There goes the spy's self defense. Now he has to pray for a facestab

 

[Artesia]

09-13-2009, 03:11 PM

You posted it today... What am I missing...?


That said, there's a line between "I dislike them" and "they're overpowered". One is an opinion, the other is a fallacious factual claim.

LordNor: Prefer what you will, but statistically the Ambassador is inferior in almost every situation.

actually both are opinions, as everyone has their own opinions on how the game should be balanced.

My belief is things that can one-shot people, actually hurt enjoyability. The order in which I dislike them are

1-spy backstab
2-sniper headshot
3-spy headshot
4-crit stickies
5-crit rockets

now just because I say I dislike them doesn't mean I think they should be removed. 4 and 5 are based on luck (other than the demo camping a door). 1 & 2 are based on the target having little counter, either they didn't know you were there, and even if they did, had no way to find you, or for 2, you are so far away that only another sniper of friendlies further up can save you should you actually want to move out of cover.

I really don't care if I get flamed. But giving spies additional unlocks to avoid detection in my mind merits giving other classes unlocks to detect.

some classes are easier for other classes to take out. As demo, I have a hard time with scouts. Against a pyro, I like to play medic with blutsauger. But with spy, he is equally good against all at backstabbing. Why would it be such a bad thing to give unlocks to other classes that would change the "constantly spin and fire randomly" dynamic of fighting a spy?

Pyro could have a flamethrower that holds 2x the ammo in a tank on his back, does 75% damage done, and explodes when he dies.

 

[Penguin]

I plan to make sandvich caches with the new sandvich dropping. Ones so tall you can hide in them.

After that, I'll greif with it by making the enemy team huge sandvich caches.

 

[c-106mc]

actually both are opinions, as everyone has their own opinions on how the game should be balanced.

My belief is things that can one-shot people, actually hurt enjoyability. The order in which I dislike them are

1-spy backstab
2-sniper headshot
3-spy headshot
4-crit stickies
5-crit rockets

now just because I say I dislike them doesn't mean I think they should be removed. 4 and 5 are based on luck (other than the demo camping a door). 1 & 2 are based on the target having little counter, either they didn't know you were there, and even if they did, had no way to find you, or for 2, you are so far away that only another sniper of friendlies further up can save you should you actually want to move out of cover.

I really don't care if I get flamed. But giving spies additional unlocks to avoid detection in my mind merits giving other classes unlocks to detect.

some classes are easier for other classes to take out. As demo, I have a hard time with scouts. Against a pyro, I like to play medic with blutsauger. But with spy, he is equally good against all at backstabbing. Why would it be such a bad thing to give unlocks to other classes that would change the "constantly spin and fire randomly" dynamic of fighting a spy?

Pyro could have a flamethrower that holds 2x the ammo in a tank on his back, does 75% damage done, and explodes when he dies.

How often do you stand still while you play? :U

 

[Artesia]

where in that post did I say anything to suggest I stand still while I'm playing? I was talking about one shot kills

 

[grazr]

I'm pretty sure sadviches will disappear after X amount of time to prevent that issue.

I'm skeptical of these updates. It might make counter-tactics a problematic one. Right now for one tactic is a simple counter of another weapon and/or class. But having a class that can equip for many different tactics makes it difficult to form a counter, and still be effective against the rest of the enemy team. It also runs the risk of a team out classing another, not just by classes but equipment as well.

I'm anticipating a lot of "WTF, i wasn't expecting that" moments because my foe was holding one weapon over another, and i couldn't react appropriately.

Crits get on my nerves as it is. I don't even like to crit other people. It negates the challenge and i feel like i did't deserve the kill. It looks like this will serve only to make play more chaotic. But i guess i'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Nineaxis]

are based on the target having little counter

Spies die easily, to pretty much anything. And all you have to do is turn around the the spy has near zero chance of killing you.

But giving spies additional unlocks to avoid detection in my mind merits giving other classes unlocks to detect.

Such as the Force-a-Nature, with a knockback that not only exposes spies, but makes them unable to move for a couple seconds, or the sandman, which makes a spy unable to move for many seconds, or Natascha, which slows a spy and makes it near impossible for him to escape, or the flare gun, to light them on fire from a distance, or Jarate, to expose them for many seconds, or...

Pyro could have a flamethrower that holds 2x the ammo in a tank on his back, does 75% damage done, and explodes when he dies.

Uh... no. That would be annoying and doesn't counter spies, and would be easy to grief.

 

[Artesia]

why would it be easy to grief, I didn't say it blows up your own team.

why is it so wrong to suggest that a detection method not require shooting at other players that appear to be on your team? It's kind of silly if you think about it... "hey are you my friend" *shoots friend in face* "yep looks like you are"

and if those "detection methods" you listed are so effective, why have I never seen a scout run around FaN every place there might be a spy? Fire is the only effective way to detect a cloaked spy, the others only work for disguised spies.

and for the "all you have to do is turn around" that's not necessarily true. I've turn around, and was firing at the spy, and got face stabbed anyway. I don't call that balance, but I'm sure you do nine as I see you play spy a lot.

 

[WastedMeerkat]

Pyro could have a flamethrower that holds 2x the ammo in a tank on his back, does 75% damage done, and explodes when he dies.

There is no plausible name for that.

EDIT: Also, if the tank is shot directly it should be a one shot kill. (directly as in no splash damage like rocket at feet or sticky) It would be relatively small, but should be a way for me to efficiently get revenge for the backburner.