A video of the TF2 Beta

[c-106mc]

Artesia, moving targets are that much harder to hit, so unless you're standing still while shooting at the spy, chances are you'll probably win.

In general crits are to promote attacking, if you're doing good and you're not close to dead, why not go on a rampage? It makes a siege more effective because you get that chance to roll that lucky crit that will deal more damage.

While crit stickies and rockets can kill just about any class in a single shot, they are not one-shot weapons and can be somewhat easy to counter if you're pyro, seeing how you can airblast those projectiles away. Headshots are not nearly as stupidly easy as Counter-Strike, so that's point one, point two, you have been endowed with the ability to strafe, meaning you can step aside. A sniper gets a clear shot at your head when you run in a straight line, so be random, especially if you know he's there. Similar thing with spies, except it's easier, since they're usually running backwards. Only part of the situation is in the other player's control, you cotrol another part, the rest is up to luck and skill.

 

[PL-7764]

I always pictured the spy's flame-retardant suit to be like the one the pyro dons permanently: it burns the spy for an instant, and produces a visible flame for that instant, but doesn't keep them burning. The flamethrower would still reveal them, but it'd be much more subtle.

Personally I want to know why Valve thinks they need to change these things. The "fixes" for the "problems" they're trying to correct seem to be causing more of an uproar than the alleged problems ever did themselves. If it's not broken, etc, etc. For instance: the Heavy is slow. But does anyone question it? That's his thing - one of the in-built characteristics of his individual class. He weighs 300+ pounds and carries a 330-pound gun. No one expects him to be fast. While his slowness is at times annoying, an engineer's teleporter fixes that well. That's why it's called TEAM Fortress 2 - everyone has to help everyone if they are to succeed.

I'm still really bugged that they're considering giving tle already updated classes more combat items than they already have. 3 should be enough I think - giving more seems like too much to keep track of, and too much to juggle in game situations/too much to contend with.

The only one of the updates shown I could see being useful, fun, and not totally outrageous all at the same time is the engineer's wrench that builds things quickly. Being able to put up a sentry that fast would be highly practical in an offensive situation, and since it's only a level 1, it won't be able to totally wipe out the enemy like a level 3 could, but it can still do enough damage to potentially turn the tide if the rest of your team is also attacking the same target/s.

 

[Artesia]

There is no plausible name for that.

EDIT: Also, if the tank is shot directly it should be a one shot kill. (directly as in no splash damage like rocket at feet or sticky) It would be relatively small, but should be a way for me to efficiently get revenge for the backburner.

then your creativity fails you. That was only a quick thought seeing as how one of the dangers of using flamethrowers is exploding. On that note, not only would it explode when you die, but have a % chance of exploding when you were hurt lower than X amount of life, and therefor could deal normal damage again. When it explodes is basically the same damage as a crit sticky going off.

as for the name comment... something like "Unstable Flamethrower" comes to mind as being simple yet descriptive.

like I said, it was a quick idea I just typed in.

 

[Artesia]

Artesia, moving targets are that much harder to hit, so unless you're standing still while shooting at the spy, chances are you'll probably win.

In general crits are to promote attacking, if you're doing good and you're not close to dead, why not go on a rampage? It makes a siege more effective because you get that chance to roll that lucky crit that will deal more damage.

While crit stickies and rockets can kill just about any class in a single shot, they are not one-shot weapons and can be somewhat easy to counter if you're pyro, seeing how you can airblast those projectiles away. Headshots are not nearly as stupidly easy as Counter-Strike, so that's point one, point two, you have been endowed with the ability to strafe, meaning you can step aside. A sniper gets a clear shot at your head when you run in a straight line, so be random, especially if you know he's there. Similar thing with spies, except it's easier, since they're usually running backwards. Only part of the situation is in the other player's control, you cotrol another part, the rest is up to luck and skill.

you fail to see what I mean about the spy and sniper. Knowing they are there or not is the first step to surviving, the sniper has a laser dot, he can hide it but it lowers his reaction time. the spy, while he now makes a noise if he uncloaks too close to you, can take out 4 people in succession without relying on lucky crits. No it wasn't me who died in that example. So my point is, that knowing they are there in the first place should increase survivability, and giving the spy a flame retardant suit basically removes a way to fight what you know is there. If you know a sniper is there, you strafe or go into cover... If you know a spy is around you... fire randomly at corners and walls?

 

[Terr]

the spy, while he now makes a noise if he uncloaks too close to you, can take out 4 people in succession without relying on lucky crits.

No, he's relying on the people he's stabbing to either be newbies or inordinately distracted by something else.

In the first case, it's targeting newbies, in which case it hardly matters what class you use. In the latter case, it's a form for of teamwork, skill (and luck) on the part of the Spy.

Sniper is my most-played class, yet I don't think spies are overpowered. I never even wear the razorback.

 

[Artesia]

No, he's relying on the people he's stabbing to either be newbies or inordinately distracted by something else.

In the first case, it's targeting newbies, in which case it hardly matters what class you use. In the latter case, it's a form for of teamwork, skill (and luck) on the part of the Spy.

Sniper is my most-played class, yet I don't think spies are overpowered. I never even wear the razorback.

what other class has the ability to kill 4 people in 4 mouse clicks (outside lucky crits) simply because they're distracted by something?

I also haven't said they're overpowered, what I have said, is I don't agree with giving spies a counter to the standard spy check

 

[owly-oop]

what other class has the ability to kill 4 people in 4 mouse clicks (outside lucky crits) simply because they're distracted by something?

I also haven't said they're overpowered, what I have said, is I don't agree with giving spies a counter to the standard spy check

Sniper can.

Anyways you're saying "4 clicks" as it's easy. It isn't easy to get behind everyone, and then uncloak at the right moment, run the right path, to finally stab the 4 people. One of those people couldve turned around. Alot of playing spies needs luck outside of what the spy can control.

And seriously, do you think this unlock will do anything major? It removes his REVOLVER. the spy has NO SELF DEFENSE. If a spy is being spychecked his disguise was most likely obvious to where he would have died anyways. If a pyro can be in flamethrower range, he can most likely bump into the spy.


Flamethrower isn't the only method of spychecking. It's not like everyone goes "he is not on fire, therefore he is my teammate"

 

[c-106mc]

what other class has the ability to kill 4 people in 4 mouse clicks (outside lucky crits) simply because they're distracted by something?

Pyro can do it one click.

 

[Artesia]

Sniper can.

Anyways you're saying "4 clicks" as it's easy. It isn't easy to get behind everyone, and then uncloak at the right moment, run the right path, to finally stab the 4 people. One of those people couldve turned around. Alot of playing spies needs luck outside of what the spy can control.

And seriously, do you think this unlock will do anything major? It removes his REVOLVER. the spy has NO SELF DEFENSE. If a spy is being spychecked his disguise was most likely obvious to where he would have died anyways. If a pyro can be in flamethrower range, he can most likely bump into the spy.


Flamethrower isn't the only method of spychecking. It's not like everyone goes "he is not on fire, therefore he is my teammate"

I like how you haven't read any of the previous posts, I'm talking about looking for a cloaked spy when you know there is one around.

also, I didn't say it was easy to do 4 fast backstabs, but the difficulty isn't what I'm talking about, it's irrelevant. I'm talking about the ability, and I haven't seen a sniper pull off that many headshots as fast as a spy can backstab.

 

[WastedMeerkat]

like I said, it was a quick idea I just typed in.

So was mine. If I were to elaborate, I would say that after the pyro fires for X amount of time, he has X amount of chance of being KABOOMed upon being shot in the tank. This introduces an overheat bar and a cooldown time; upon reaching the max overheat, the fire would start doing 200% normal initial blast damage on the 50% chance of the tank exploding upon fire, so the pyro can't take advantage of this effect and spam clicks. Is that creative enough? I just think it'd be a little hard to fit this into the weapon description.

 

[Artesia]

Pyro can do it one click.

pyro uses a hold-down weapon, and while backburner is very powerful and can take out people like a good spy, he's not invisible.

 

[Terr]

I don't understand what your point is with this "four clicks" business. The Spy is also one of the most dramatically ineffective against enemies as they become coordinated and aware.

Similarly, the sniper can down a whole enemy charge if they do it through an open area, but it is silly to around complaining because he can "instantly kill four people in four clicks without using crits". In both cases you're acting like the situational conditions that allow each class to actually succeed (tunnel-vision enemies or large open areas) are somehow not important.

Any spy taking the suit will basically be trading total uselessness in a stand-up fight for an extra chance if a Pyro spams somewhere. There is absolutely no downside for any enemies who aren't pyros, because they'd do the same amount of spy-checking (ex. with a shotgun) as before, except the Spy has no chance to fight back.

The Pyro-vs-spy dynamic will change: Spy detection requires less than blowing flame everywhere as you run, and you can't axtinguish them. But you can still air-blast them into a corner until you run out of ammo without ever worrying that they could do even a single point of damage to you. None of those spies will turn around and put an ambassador shot through your facemask as you chase them.

 

[NovaSilisko]

Why are we arguing about snipers and spies again?

 

[Okrag]

The P. D. Q. seems problematic. A defensive engineer can build his sentries quicker than run to the resupply locker, change weapon, then upgrade his sentry. It's not a side grade, it's an upgrade to the class in general. That aside it seems underpowered. It should get an overheal type thing so that your level one sentries at least have more health. It would only apply to level one sentries though.

 

[Terr]

Why are we arguing about snipers and spies again?

Because Artesia seems to think clicks-per-kills is somehow an important measure of class balance and ease-of-play, and the Sniper is the clearest counterexample as one of the few other classes with a technique-based instant-kill.

 

[NovaSilisko]

The P. D. Q. seems problematic. A defensive engineer can build his sentries quicker than run to the resupply locker, change weapon, then upgrade his sentry. It's not a side grade, it's an upgrade to the class in general. That aside it seems underpowered. It should get an overheal type thing so that your level one sentries at least have more health. It would only apply to level one sentries though.

It probably sets something in the sentry to make it not able to be upgraded.

 

[Artesia]

wow Terr... that was simply an example... notice how I only said that in one instance... not the whole thread.

Here is my point, if you want to read it here instead of going back.

1- Pyros are the most effective at spy checking
2- I don't like that pyros are the more most effective, I would prefer other, less "shoot every player in the face" means (or run through every player, then get facestabbed)
3- I don't think giving spies an item to circumvent our "best" spycheck is a good idea without adding something to replace the pyro as a spycheck.

 

[Nineaxis]

I don't think giving spies an item to circumvent our "best" spycheck is a good idea without adding something to replace the pyro as a spycheck.

It doesn't circumvent it, it just means there isn't afterburn. Spy still gets damaged and pyro still hears the burning sound when they hit him, and he'll still be visible. He still takes full damage from fire.

And every weapon can be used to spycheck. EVERY WEAPON. You don't need to add something to replace the flamethrower as a spycheck weapon.

 

[MrAlBobo]

The P. D. Q. seems problematic. A defensive engineer can build his sentries quicker than run to the resupply locker, change weapon, then upgrade his sentry. It's not a side grade, it's an upgrade to the class in general.

Just saying...but it would probably take longer to run back to spawn and switch wrenches then it would to just use the normal one...
Regardless I eagerly await this wrench.

As for the spy thing...Im not really clear why you (Artesia) think that spies need to be detectable while cloaked, he is by far more vulnerable while visible or uncloaking...just...wait for that. And that said, it is rare that I see a spy who was exposed by someone bumping into them actually manage to get away/ not get instantly killed.

Its like nine said, all this flame retardant thing would do is make the spy getting burned less of an instant lose and more of a "if their very lucky they can escape" thing.
Personally I haven't played spy in a long time as I am finding the class significantly more useless <_<
Oh, and in the past month I have been playing mostly heavy, sniper, medic and engie...haven't really had a problem with spies...the FaN and rockets however...

 

[Shoomonger]

OFFTOPIC: nice video