WiP in WiP, post your screenshots!

Idolon

they/them
aa
Feb 7, 2008
2,107
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Making the decision while you're frustrated won't give a good result.

While I agree with this, I think there's value in forcing something out. If you've run out of ideas on how to complete something, just sticking something in and getting it tested helps in generating new ideas. In a way, playtesting is a form of sketching - you're putting something into the real world so that you can see how it works outside of your head.

I think part of the problem is that, in Hammer, everything is equally permanent. As designers, we need to know more about our designs than the tools do. It's up to us to decide which parts of our map are more core to our design, regardless of how a published .bsp doesn't reflect it.

In architecture, there's generally two camps - practicing architecture and academic architecture. As caricatures, the practicing architects actually make buildings that maintain the status quo, and the academic architects talk about how to push things further without actually building anything. The architects that bridge the gap (those who build things but also try to innovate and do things that might not work) are generally regarded as 'unicorns,' and are also usually the ones who find the most success.

I'm kinda rambling and getting off topic, so I'll try to summarize my thoughts: Publishing work that you don't completely believe in is a very effective way to challenge your beliefs and further your understanding (and by extension, everyone else's) of what designs 'work.' Letting an idea sit can help it develop, but so can throwing it into the wild and watching what happens.
 

IrishTaxIDriver

L6: Sharp Member
Sep 27, 2008
271
149
While I agree with this, I think there's value in forcing something out. If you've run out of ideas on how to complete something, just sticking something in and getting it tested helps in generating new ideas. In a way, playtesting is a form of sketching - you're putting something into the real world so that you can see how it works outside of your head.

I think part of the problem is that, in Hammer, everything is equally permanent. As designers, we need to know more about our designs than the tools do. It's up to us to decide which parts of our map are more core to our design, regardless of how a published .bsp doesn't reflect it.

In architecture, there's generally two camps - practicing architecture and academic architecture. As caricatures, the practicing architects actually make buildings that maintain the status quo, and the academic architects talk about how to push things further without actually building anything. The architects that bridge the gap (those who build things but also try to innovate and do things that might not work) are generally regarded as 'unicorns,' and are also usually the ones who find the most success.

I'm kinda rambling and getting off topic, so I'll try to summarize my thoughts: Publishing work that you don't completely believe in is a very effective way to challenge your beliefs and further your understanding (and by extension, everyone else's) of what designs 'work.' Letting an idea sit can help it develop, but so can throwing it into the wild and watching what happens.

You're absolutely right as well. Thats a good note to end on for this discussion in the WIP thread.
 

UKCS-Alias

Mann vs Machine... or... Mapper vs Meta?
aa
Sep 8, 2008
1,264
816
You're not predicting there, you're assuming.
In some cases you can already predict its not going to work. As for example alot of narrow ways is in many cases already going in a bad direction. Taking areas into height is also risky and if there is no reasoning behind it then again, its often an indication your idea is flawed. These predictions can be made quite safe. Since if you had a reason to do so then thats part of the idea you want to make. Getting it to work is sometimes the chalenge. Otherwise i could have scrapped intercept instantly.
Predicting implies theres a science behind design, a concrete way of doing things that cannot be broken. Players are cats, they'll do things you don't want them to, they'll react to the same situations in different maps differently, they'll expand to fill space in ways you never intended, etc.
Players are just like computer code. If you dont properly trigger them they wont perform what they should. So in a certain way you need to guide them. The rest is just rand();
Don't try to predict players. Give them cool situations and watch them have fun. Find the parts that give the least amount of fun and fix them.
Do predict the basic behaviour, but dont try to strictly predict them. If you make a doorway with option left or right where left is more ideal. If they go right just let them. This is indeed something you cant predict and is part of the playtesting requirement. A fully static map isnt good after all.
Being quick to scrap can be bad. What time are you saving? What are you in a hurry to do? Take your time with ideas. Its great if it works out right away but sometimes ideas need breathing space. You thought of it for a reason, so theres something about it on some level that interests you.
It depends on what you scrap. Some things have been proven to fail often. If you think your idea isnt going to work, dont use it. There you save time. Scrapping a whole map rarely falls under this, and if it does you often just scrap the idea. Once you have a full map you can still change the gamemode. So on that scrapping is indeed less efficient. But this already got past the first few thinking moments for a reason.
Gameplay can be heavily informed by a theme and it keeps the believably of the map high, but if you didn't go into the idea using the theme for gameplay it'll be easier to change themes, yeah. Its dangerous to change horses midstream.
A theme can be part of the gameplay. And your specialy constructed area is most likely made to be a full part of it (capture area's etc). And for that reason you can adjust the control point to the theme. But you can still do that afterward, rough placeholders can still be changed to nearly everything else. And this is what you should do on detailing. But it can also be counter productive since beauty can hinder gameplay. And when players get anoyed it isnt a good thing.

A theme simply makes it easier for some people to get their map into a shape as they got reference images. This isnt the case for everyone however. And its also wise to not strictly follow a certain theme because it will give you restrictions that are going to hinder.

For intercept i used a pyramid, but the facade is something that is highly unrealistic. But since i found gameplay more important i was still able to get it to fit nicely. And that is only because the gameplay shape has been set, i only had to match the visuals.

There are many solutions, and my own ones might be the opposite of yours. But both are true. It depends on the mapper. Im one that focusses on gameplay and decides to detail afterward.

(also, i mainly play just 3 gamemodes in tf2: payload, A/D cp, mvm)
 

hutty

aa
Mar 30, 2014
542
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TIrFscp.gif

undertome a2 is coming along alright
 

Pocket

Half a Lambert is better than one.
aa
Nov 14, 2009
4,696
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You do know we have WebM support now, right? You don't have to post massive, ugly GIFs anymore.
 

Zed

Certified Most Crunk™
aa
Aug 7, 2014
1,241
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That looks ridiculously confusing to navigate.
 

hutty

aa
Mar 30, 2014
542
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Zed isn't wrong, the map needs way more visual cues to help players not get lost. Hence one of the reason's it isn't out yet.
 
Aug 30, 2015
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TIrFscp.gif

undertome a2 is coming along alright

I don't think I've ever seen a map design that plays around the functionality of grapple hooks to such an impressive extent. Then again maybe I just don't play enough mannpower.

I'm interested in seeing how this plays with combat though; atm it just looks to me like the new surfing.
 

hutty

aa
Mar 30, 2014
542
445
To be fair, I was holding the speedy powerup for that gif.

But yeah, at the moment there is only one good mannpower map, ctf_hellfire.. thundermountain and gorge are passable, but don't feel natural for the gamemode. As for combat, I'll have to see when I get a2 out, I can't really test this with bots. (A1 did not test well, but I have made heavy modifications since then)
 
Aug 30, 2015
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I had an exciting day of making minor changes to Soma based on feedback Monday's test. I'd like to run another test to determine what to keep where to focus the next round of heavy changes before making any deep cuts. Right now it looks like I will be leaving Point A mostly the same, but rebuilding the area in between Points A and B from scratch. I've been tossing around ideas for a completely new Point B and Blue Spawn, so that's nice I guess. Writing this it occurs to me that no one will read this.

Since that's not very sexy I thought I'd share some pictures from some 1v1 arenas I've been working on. These probably aren't very good 1v1 arenas, not that I have any bearing one what qualifies a map as such. A dull life and unlimited access to graph paper have left me with a large quantity of rooms that probably would never work in the context of a map. I really just wanted to dump some of them

20160419223923_1.jpg 20160419223940_1.jpg 20160419224051_1.jpg 20160419224233_1.jpg
 
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Zed

Certified Most Crunk™
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Aug 7, 2014
1,241
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it's [s ] to do strikethroughs.
 
Aug 30, 2015
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Oh no! The incorrect strikethrough spoiled my incredibly funny joke!

I turned my computer off and was like "You know, I think I did those strikethroughs wrong"
I should do more stuff around eleven, it seems to be the only time I think clearly
 
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Yacan1

D I G I T A L I N F L U E N C E R
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Nov 7, 2010
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some more conceptual stuff. Thoughts? Trying to balance the classic TF2 feel with experimentation with foundry's theme.