The Future of Compensation for TF2 Mappers: A Community / Valve Discussion

[Fantaboi]

I mentioned this idea before:
Valve makes a few new custom servers. Each week, or few weeks, they get new maps on their rotations, maps decided would be those in the map workshop (if valve made an official one)
Then each update, they post it on their blog, and it gets added to quickplay. It'd take a bit of effort to maintain, but I don't see why not when these maps are seen as "custom"

 

[takabuschik]

In a world where new games clock in at upwards of 30 GB, 11 is hardly massive.

In a world were some people have a total hard-disc memory of only ~70 gb, 15.5 gb neto is a lot. (my tf2 is almost 20 gb bruto, w/ a few custom mods and maps, some custom packs (bulletcrops, construction etc), and vmf's)
I see no reason why Valve should favor those who have better computers.

 

[fubarFX]

the point is that some maps simply don't get played. so no matter the filesize, those maps qualify as excess. that excess should not deter anyone from playing the game. because as I've said previously, 14gb is a somewhat large commitment, especially for newer players who might just be looking to try out 2-3 maps to get a feel for the game. Let me also reiterate that tf2 is now free to play, the influx of player works very differently than it did before. if all map downloads were done on demand, it would force valve to adopt a more dynamic approach at handling maps which, I believe, would be beneficial.

for the record, this is not something that I think could realistically be done for tf2 but I'm looking at you source 2

 

[xzzy]

If we're going to nitpick file sizes, someone should get on Valve to stop using wav files.

Or how about compressing their textures.

Especially now that mappers can bake light maps for props, that's gonna produce some comically large bsps.

Not that any of this relates to this topic at all! :O

 

[UKCS-Alias]

In a world where new games clock in at upwards of 30 GB, 11 is hardly massive.

For a 7 year old game its still quite a bit. But then again, it isnt the only game with such requirements that is that old.

But making even stock maps have to download during gameplay would help to get people accustomed to the idea, at least, and prevent them from automatically favoring stock maps on the grounds that waiting for a map to download is inconvenient.

Well, its not realy the waiting times being the problems, they assist to the problem but arent the problem itself. Its also the convenience of already knowing which maps are good and get played enough.
Those download times with the workshop can simply be countered by marking it to be followed. It then can just download the map outside the game which shouldnt harm unless you instantly start the game after that. And even then, you might mark 20 maps and only play 5 of them, those other 15 can still be downloaded after.

achievement_idle_trade_plaza_downtown_rp_dark_v3_remake_underscore_final1_v4 is trending this week! Click the button below to find servers currently playing it.

Exclude specific prefixes and promote specific prefixes.
Modes like achievement_, trade_, surf_ and jump_ can simply be blacklisted (its known prefixes for modes that simply dont have normal versus gameplay). Modes like cp_, pl_, mvm_ and such promoted possible even with custom modes known to feature normal gameplay like dom_. Modes like ph_ and vsh_ would still get downrated, but even for that there are alternatives:
[] Allow special modes

People that are just going to abuse the cp_ prefix for a trade map will have a hard time as anyone joining such map expecting it to be a normal mode will probably blacklist the server/map. so those can still be excluded fast.

 

[YM]

Or just have a member of the team decide on the weekly featured map....

 

[takabuschik]

Or just have a member of the team decide on the weekly featured map....

Hoping it'll end better than the bug report system..

 

[henke37]

One thing about putting the default maps in the workshop as optional downloads is that people can just download them. It can be as simple as an option in the installer to select between "minimum" or "full" installs. Anyone remember when installers had that option? You could even subdivide it further by putting things like mvm maps and training in separate categories.

And a simple "subscribe to group" option in the workbench would take care of Valve adding new official content.

 

[Crash]

This is a very strange tangent the thread has taken and I think if it needs any further discussion it should be taken to another thread, as it is very off topic.

 

[fauks]

Honestly I feel new maps (both Valve made and community maps made official) are an important cornerstone of any major update. Cosmetic content and to a lesser extent weapons require you to pay (or pay with in game items). Maps are always free, and the one piece of content in an update that everyone from brand new F2P players to grizzled veterans such as many of the people who can post here can enjoy with the update.

That is one of the reasons I've been very disappointed in Valve not making as many maps official as they used to. Look at the Love and War update for example, it had several new weapons (which you can craft or buy), taunts (which you can buy) and cosmetics (which you can buy). If your a newer or casual player who couldn't afford the new content there was nothing in the update for you. If Valve had included a community map or two in the update there would of been something for everyone to enjoy in the update.

But think about TF2 as it is now... don't you think most people just want to mess around, on familiar maps, with wacky new hats every few weeks? I'm just saying, I don't think maps are a big thing... for most people. TF2 stopped making a big deal about maps a long time ago.
But I think the competitive scene would like some new finished maps. And they are the ones that don't care if they have to download a map, and they'll go out of their way to use a custom one.

 

[takabuschik]

But think about TF2 as it is now... don't you think most people just want to mess around, on familiar maps, with wacky new hats every few weeks? I'm just saying, I don't think maps are a big thing... for most people. TF2 stopped making a big deal about maps a long time ago.
But I think the competitive scene would like some new finished maps. And they are the ones that don't care if they have to download a map, and they'll go out of their way to use a custom one.

But since when did hat-wearing fashion become better then shooting people and exploding bomb pits?
Since when people will rather show off their new costumes than fight the enemies off control points?
Since when would people stay in spawn conga'ing rather than actually play the game?
Since when did the hats and taunts become the important things, rather than maps and weapons?


That is what the EOTL is all about: the switch between "actual content" being the impotant thing, to "Hats and stupid duck killstreak crap" is the best tf2 lol tf2 lol.
Really, I think not only did this thread had taken a strange tangent, but the whole concept of tf2 did (quite a long time ago, actually).

 

[CommodoreKong]

But since when did hat-wearing fashion become better then shooting people and exploding bomb pits?
Since when people will rather show off their new costumes than fight the enemies off control points?
Since when would people stay in spawn conga'ing rather than actually play the game?
Since when did the hats and taunts become the important things, rather than maps and weapons?


That is what the EOTL is all about: the switch between "actual content" being the impotant thing, to "Hats and stupid duck killstreak crap" is the best tf2 lol tf2 lol.
Really, I think not only did this thread had taken a strange tangent, but the whole concept of tf2 did (quite a long time ago, actually).

Yeah what happened with the End of the Line update made it very clear that the TF2 community very much does care about maps and consider them an important part of updates. I've never seen the TF2 community so universally in agreement that cutting Snowplow from the update was the wrong thing to do, and I hope Valve got the message loud and clear that gameplay affecting content is the most important part of a major update.

 

[Pocket]

Or just have a member of the team decide on the weekly featured map....

I'm not convinced "the team" even consists of more than one person anymore as it is.

In a world were some people have a total hard-disc memory of only ~70 gb

Those would be the people whose "computers" are actually tablets, I'm guessing? I imagine those people only play games like Angry Birds and Candy Crush.

If we're going to nitpick file sizes, someone should get on Valve to stop using wav files.

I'd favor this, but the sum total of the sound files in the game isn't as huge as you'd think — barely two and a half gigs. And they're packed up in VPKs, so who knows if using a compressed format would even cut that down.

Or how about compressing their textures.

They... do? I mean, VPK is a compressed container format, and most textures use a form of lossy compression on top of that.

Especially now that mappers can bake light maps for props, that's gonna produce some comically large bsps.

The solution is for mappers to not do that. I think people will still object to maps bigger than 100MB.

 

[Fruity Snacks]

Afaik, it's generally just not useful to use the baking of lightmaps unless the prop you are making is HUGE or big and flat.

(See Asteroids facades)

 

[Pocket]

Which goes back to what I said when they rolled it out, they should have made it only available on certain surfaces of certain props by explicitly using special material files. Theoretically there's still time to dial it back to that; I don't know of any custom maps that have made extensive use of it.

 

[Fruity Snacks]

Which goes back to what I said when they rolled it out, they should have made it only available on certain surfaces of certain props by explicitly using special material files. Theoretically there's still time to dial it back to that; I don't know of any custom maps that have made extensive use of it.

We thought about it for snowplow's snow rooves on stage 1, but this is when we discovered that it's not really worth it for some things

 

[Freyja]

Which goes back to what I said when they rolled it out, they should have made it only available on certain surfaces of certain props by explicitly using special material files. Theoretically there's still time to dial it back to that; I don't know of any custom maps that have made extensive use of it.

It doesn't matter. 99% of props will not work with lightmapping because it uses the same UV channel as the texture. So it'll look incredibly shit on 99% of props. No one uses it because it doesn't work unless you explicitly make the prop with it in mind. There's no reason to restrict it because it basically already is.

 

[Pocket]

Well, I was thinking more about the props can benefit from it, but still have elements like fine trim that ought to be vertex lit. (This includes a lot of Asteroid's props, but another good example would be a breached wall like ctf_sawmill's — the flat part could be lightmapped but the jagged edge of the hole itself should be vertex lit.)

 

[henke37]

The developer wiki says that VPK files do not offer compression. Where did you get this information from?

And 2.5 GB is huge when it comes to audio. You could easily cut it in half using modern audio codecs. Possibly more if they stop duplicating voice lines for the robots and just apply the effects at runtime.

 

[Fruity Snacks]

I thought that only .wav worked for in-hammer preview though? And .mp3's can't loop.