TF2Maps.net Contest #8 - KoTH, Sponsored by STAR_

[GPuzzle]

You know what's worse? When I say I'm a mapper, people don't believe or ask me stuff like "make a giant dick"! And when I say I work with dev textures, they ask me if I make Orange maps!
Everywhere people think mappers are useless or that they make the map good-looking first, THEN fix the layout!

 

[Sergis]

Two ranks and two winners = double the work for the organizer(s) and double the prizes needed. Judging like this worked out fine for the first time out. Yes, there can be improvements, but things for this one went smoothly and turned out well.

its easy for things to go smooth when there are almost no things going on

 

[Fruity Snacks]

its easy for things to go smooth when there are almost no things going on

Mmmm, you'd be surprised...

 

[HarMala]

congratulations Hanz (and others)

 

[Sergis]

Mmmm, you'd be surprised...

nope.

maybe for you running shit was eventful.

but from over here, this looked quite uneventful. "aight ive sent maps to star" "here are stars prelims" "here is a news video" "here are the winners". done. no feedbacks, no public votings, no real reason to play contest maps, no way to make your opinion matter, no intrigue seeing a few maps getting early votes, no anything that was natural to any other contest. no participation in the contest process after submission date at all. just toss the maps into submission thread and sit and wait for the results.

 

[LeSwordfish]

no way to make your opinion matter,

Well, we had only two people volunteer to be judges. Neither of them were you. So, you know, for next time...

 

[Prestige]

competitive players just want near-perfect maps in all aspects i think. good difficulty + evenness of pushing at mid-2nd and 2nd-last stalemates (5cp), good class balance, etc.. I think problems in map design are just more highlighted in organized play is all. It's difficult to tell really...scorp/arnold might have some insight.

I remember having a lot of fun on skyward in pugs, but when some people with a better understanding of tf2/6's played in one, they pointed out some flaws that I didn't really notice before (something about heavies rolling out onto battlements being unstoppable), but i don't think it deserved the lowest ranking.

 

[Baraleth]

I'm not too sure where my map placed in all of this

 

[Sergis]

Well, we had only two people volunteer to be judges. Neither of them were you. So, you know, for next time...

clever guy eh

do you even read the rules of the contest

TF2M Staff and Officers are allowed to enter and win, but contest judges are not.

"for next time" think before posting

 

[Fruity Snacks]

"for next time" think before posting

I think he was implying that if you weren't going to enter, you could judge and let your opinion be heard.

Please be more respectful towards other members doom.

 

[grazr]

This is not really a problem with the contest, but with making competitive maps in general I think.

In my experience, here's what happens: you make a map, you post about it on a comp forum, you hear "looks great, let's get a pub on it" and then that's the last you ever hear of it. Even if you bump the thread with updates, it's to the sound of crickets.

And sometimes if you're really unlucky, you'll hear a comp player say "why don't mappers understand what comp players want."

So getting semi-regular 6v6 feedback has been a really excellent, but rare experience for me personally. Speaking of comp desires, I watch not only STAR but Sal, eXtine, and ETF2L channels on youtube pretty heavily, and I'm still mostly clueless on what comp players are actually looking for in a map.

ETF2L was great for comp testing until Tarmo- (or was it MacNetron? Or both) left as an admin. When the admins lose the initiative to support custom maps the players don't tend to really give a shit either way. The servers never get updated and the map rotations never change. The comp community really need an admin to kick them up the backside in regards to supporting the development of comp focused maps and if i were to suggest any clans or PUG teams it's almost always the Finnish guys who're up for comp testing.

 

[fubarFX]

there are some interesting discussions about custom maps on teamfortress.tv
there is some talk about changing how custom maps are processed. not sure if it will change anything but there's hope

 

[tyler]

spires

apparently not, i tried that

 

[tovilovan]

This is not really a problem with the contest, but with making competitive maps in general I think.

In my experience, here's what happens: you make a map, you post about it on a comp forum, you hear "looks great, let's get a pub on it" and then that's the last you ever hear of it. Even if you bump the thread with updates, it's to the sound of crickets.

And sometimes if you're really unlucky, you'll hear a comp player say "why don't mappers understand what comp players want."

So getting semi-regular 6v6 feedback has been a really excellent, but rare experience for me personally. Speaking of comp desires, I watch not only STAR but Sal, eXtine, and ETF2L channels on youtube pretty heavily, and I'm still mostly clueless on what comp players are actually looking for in a map.

From my experience of competitive mapping, there's no way you're gonna create a map liked by the competitive community without any sort of competitive experience. You're just not gonna be able to 1. anticipate what competitive players expect and 2. understand what they mean with their (often scarce, I grant that) feedback, unless you've been in those same situations myself.

Apparently there's a HUGE request for competitive maps, but the reason why so few maps get further than alpha stage is because the one creating them has to be 1. An experienced competitive player 2. An experienced level designer and 3. Have the determination to update maps again and again with little feedback, and endure the fact that most of the feedback will be about how ugly the map is. I've found that as a competitive mapper, you simply cant expect playtesting - you'll have to find someone in the community that likes your map, and discuss it with them, or be a part of the community yourself and in that way find ways to playtest it.

 

[Ravidge]

I suggest a whole new thread to be created if this topic of competitive mapping in these very large terms (as in, not isolated to this contest in particular) continues. It's a good topic to explore, just saying that this thread isn't suited to host it.

 

[Pocket]

Why do comp players care about how ugly a map is? I thought they were the types who play with fpsconfigs that make the game look like ass no matter what map they're on.

 

[tyler]

Like anyone else, they appreciate effort.

 

[Sergis]

Why do comp players care about how ugly a map is? I thought they were the types who play with fpsconfigs that make the game look like ass no matter what map they're on.

maybe thats the secret

maybe a map that looks good in full detail not necessarily looks good in flattextures

im not entirely sure how serious am i here tho

 

[Burnout6010]

Why do comp players care about how ugly a map is? I thought they were the types who play with fpsconfigs that make the game look like ass no matter what map they're on.

It's quite ironic if you think about it ...
Even more funny : I remember a while back someone proved using Low Quality textures used more resources than Very High because the game has to recalculate the texture into a more uglier and blurrier version :O

 

[Sel]

It's quite ironic if you think about it ...
Even more funny : I remember a while back someone proved using Low Quality textures used more resources than Very High because the game has to recalculate the texture into a more uglier and blurrier version :O

I find it pretty doubtful that scaling down images takes many resources, or that the engine would be doing that on the fly, all the time.