Tf2 theme

Dec 25, 2007
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HL2 model in Goldrush The wheels are models/props_wasteland/wheel03b.mdl -- unskinned, and looking quite un-tf2-like. However, you wouldn't really notice, as they're quite a long way from the play area, as you can easily see in this screenshot.


Anyway, I support your point about the theme, and these wheels are just the exception that proves the rule. If you're thinking of using any HL2 models or textures in your map, think again. Most of them are completely unsuitable; even those that are ok need to be used judiciously, like the stair risers in 2fort.

And EP1/EP2/CSS models and textures are right out, as many people will not have those games.
 
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Shmitz

Old Hat
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Nov 12, 2007
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The TF2 "theme" is far more psychological than it is visual. However, the visuals are what communicate these ideas.

Here's some word/phrase association to illustrate the idealogical differences between the two teams:
RED
Working man
Jury-rig
Tradition
Old fashioned
If it ain't broke, don't fix it
Labor
Camaraderie
Nature
Humanity
Family

BLUE
Power
Organization
Technology
Progress
Strength in numbers
Order
Structure
Industry
Collective
Business

Warm colors and angular architecture is not what defines the Red style, they're a result of the Red ideals. The same applies to blue's cool colors and orthogonal architecture. The types of props and locations created support these ideas.

In Valve's "Illustrative Rendering in Team Fortress 2" document, they discuss world composition and texture creation. More than once visual noise is mentioned as being something to avoid.

"Furthermore, we believe that high frequency geometric and texture detail found in photorealistic games can often overpower the ability of designers to compose game environments and emphasize gameplay features visually using intentional design choices such as changes in color value."

Level designers should always be aware of the scene they're designing. Lighting and color help direct the player's attention to where it needs to go. In single player games like Half Life 2, high levels of detail and realism can work because a player can take their time to look at their surroundings and make decisions. A player is also not likely to visit a location more than once or twice. TF2 is much more fast paced. Players need to make decisions quickly, and they are likely to be going over the same areas over and over.

On a surface with a lot of visual noise, a player is more likely to ignore any additional noise. On a clean surface, a player is definitely going to notice if it's pocked with bullet holes or covered in blood splatters, and realize that someone has built a sentry around the corner since last time he came this way. On a highly realistic red brick wall, who is going to notice those red stickies as they rush by?

Impressionistic visuals are as the name implies. The viewer gets the impression of what something is supposed to be. That's all a player of TF2 needs. The player gets the idea of wood, and moves on to pay attention to more important things. It simplifies the information a player needs to process. It makes it easier for level designers to compose a scene that stresses pathways and defensive positions.

Another very important factor of the impressionistic, illustrative visuals though is that of the world it conveys. TF2 is very much a world of fiction. It is a world of pulp, of B-movies, of propoganda posters. It is an exaggeration of reality. We see this in the materials and architecture, but we also see it in the character designs and HUD elements. We see it in the font. We see it in the weapon models and engineer structures.

Youme is dead on about consistency being the most important thing, because otherwise you're just confusing the player by sending mixed messages. Maybe you want to have a different psychological theme. Maybe you want to convey a sense of gritty realism, where players feel the danger around the corner is so real when they jump out with guns blazing their heart is pounding in fear. But to do that, you would need to change everything else mentioned above, not just the map. This is why Youme suggests finding a better game, where you don't have to change the entirety of the game beyond the map in order for the psychology of the art to mesh.

I'll put this bluntly. A person who creates art without at all considering the psychological impact of their art has already failed, unless the exercise itself was the goal and the piece is never meant for any audience beyond the artist.

So again, people should think about the game they are creating a map for, and whether or not the artistic goal of their map matches the artistic goal of the game. If you want to create a photorealistic map or a saturday-morning-cartoon map or a cyberpunk map for TF2, you are not just selling short the game, you are selling short your map. Why would you not seek a game more appropriate to the theme you are trying to create?
 

YM

LVL100 YM
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Dec 5, 2007
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Whoa I didn't even see this!

Amazing post shmitz. You seem to have got it just about right
 

Sacrifist

L3: Member
Nov 21, 2007
130
7
As long as players find the map enjoyable or plays well with how the server is setup, nobody outside of mapping forums care what it looks like.

As proven here:
http://v3.game-monitor.com/topmaps.php?game=tf2

TF2 is somewhat of a waste of time for building "the ultimate" looking map unless you are trying to get a job mapping for some gaming company. Good luck trying to get it on a rotation of more then 50 servers or even 10 servers for that matter. Just ask Vilepickle. That guy goes out of his way to post in tons of gaming forums about his maps. The more publicity the better right? Not in TF2. And his maps are by far better then most.
 

Ziggurat

L1: Registered
Nov 7, 2007
20
0
As long as players find the map enjoyable or plays well with how the server is setup, nobody outside of mapping forums care what it looks like.

As proven here:
http://v3.game-monitor.com/topmaps.php?game=tf2

TF2 is somewhat of a waste of time for building "the ultimate" looking map unless you are trying to get a job mapping for some gaming company. Good luck trying to get it on a rotation of more then 50 servers or even 10 servers for that matter. Just ask Vilepickle. That guy goes out of his way to post in tons of gaming forums about his maps. The more publicity the better right? Not in TF2. And his maps are by far better then most.

That said, there is absolutely no reason that a popular map which looks awful can't be both popular AND look great. That is the main goal. You are making it sound like these two things are mutually exclusive, and that any map that has had time and effort spent on making it look good will never be popular. This is a lie.
 

MrAlBobo

L13: Stunning Member
Feb 20, 2008
1,059
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well...im finally back and I can make comments :D
1st off I found this while browsing the pdf's posted earlier:

"In the early stages
of development, many of these 2D textures were physically painted
on canvas with watercolors and scanned to make texture maps. As
we refined the art style of the game, texture artists shifted to using
photorealistic reference images with a series of filters and digital
brush strokes applied to achieve the desired look of a physically
painted texture."
So...this basically means that valve does start with photo quality images and alters them for at least some of the textures. So it is perfectly fine to do that and hold to the theme.

2nd, while being bored at school today it occurred to me that all of valves comments on level design (in the pdfs anyways) seem to revolve around 2fort. 2fort, being a ctf map with 2 distinct goals is very easy to show the differences between the teams. Other gametypes you see alot less of that. On gravelpit and dustbowl there is no real division between the teams, theme wise. That is, it is not more industrial toward the blue side, and it is not more "rural" towards the red side, it basically holds to a more monotone concept. Admittedly if you were to stretch the definition a bit you could say that since one team is "attacking" the other, you would be entirely in the defending teams setting and would only have to rely on that. That puts the choices for the attack and defend gametype to either not being bound to the red/blue concept, or being bound to only one teams theme. But, linear cp and tc maps do not follow red/blue at all, and tend to be exact mirrors on each side.
Ive basically drawn from this that only ctf maps need to follow the theory of red/ blue, and other gametypes have a bit more freedom, being only bound to the impressionistic concepts.

So...yeah, im no longer seeing an effective way to condense this into general guidelines, but the thread itself is doing a very good job of explaining.
 

Shmitz

Old Hat
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Nov 12, 2007
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22 of the top 25 maps in that list are either valve maps or maps released very early in TF2's life cycle. People play what they know, and it has nothing to do with quality of gameplay.

Level designers who care about quality make maps for a different audience: players who are actually willing to try something new.

Top played lists are also flawed because stock map servers and gimmick map servers are more likely to have smaller map rotations, meaning those maps show up on the server list more often. Servers that run custom maps, the servers that host our target audience, will have a much larger map list, so individual maps will show up on the server list less frequently.
 

Sgt Frag

L14: Epic Member
May 20, 2008
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I think MrAlBobo makes a great point about the maps color themes. There certianly are a few maps that tend to be non-team related like dustbowl.

However it has always struck me as more of a red map anyway. Which makes sense as it is their terrain and they are defending. I think a good way to mix it up would be to have a similar map style with red invading blu. Guess it really depends on if you want to make a map more out of wood/red style terrain or you want a more industrial blu look.
 

Sacrifist

L3: Member
Nov 21, 2007
130
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22 of the top 25 maps in that list are either valve maps or maps released very early in TF2's life cycle. People play what they know, and it has nothing to do with quality of gameplay.

If this is actually true then why bother even going through the process of making a new map for TF2 if your full reason for doing so is to get it played? Once Valve released Goldrush, 50% of the servers running custom maps disappeared from that list. What happens when Valve releases another map or 2? It really blows my mind how bad it is for custom maps in TF2. I feel sorry for the guys that put 4 or 5 months into a map only to have it get played on 3 servers. Its just sad.
 

MrAlBobo

L13: Stunning Member
Feb 20, 2008
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pesh, as long as you get to play your own maps along with the people you want to play the map then who really cares. Trying to build a name for yourself on the internet is basically a waste of time, map for the fun of it, or for the fun of playing your completed map.

...there was something else I intended to say...but I forgot what I was...
 

Spike

L10: Glamorous Member
Feb 13, 2008
716
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I think all related to cartoon will fit in TF2. Some themes are difficult to fit, for example space maps can be a little bit dark, but If you do it well will be awesome.

I'm doing a tropical island map, it's inspired on Crysis, so it's all about experimenting new things. My next map will be a theme park, another new theme to experiment with, it's all about have a good time mapping.
 

Sgt Frag

L14: Epic Member
May 20, 2008
1,443
710
pesh, as long as you get to play your own maps along with the people you want to play the map then who really cares. Trying to build a name for yourself on the internet is basically a waste of time, map for the fun of it, or for the fun of playing your completed map.

...there was something else I intended to say...but I forgot what I was...

Well, I don't know about you but I'd like my maps to get played by alot of people. That's not the whole reason I map, I like to map. But that is a big reason. Running around solo in the editor solo is only so much fun.

As far as friends to play with... I personally know about 3 other people who play online games at all. 2 man teams (if they all played TF2) doesn't sound like all that much fun either.
 

dookiebot

L1: Registered
Mar 20, 2008
36
3
There are reasons why there are guidelines for things- it brings order and helps the gamplay experience flow.

But there is always room to try to look at things from a different perspective and try new directions.

In the end it boils down to whether the gameplay is any good or not. Guidelines are there to help get you there sooner than having to figure everything out on your own. But they aren't the only way.

I have played some great looking TF2 maps that weren't memorable gaming experiences, and also played some ugly lookin amatuer maps that had some great gameplay elements. I suppose that just goes to show all mappers need to be wise enough to always be willing to learn something new.
 

MrAlBobo

L13: Stunning Member
Feb 20, 2008
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As far as friends to play with... I personally know about 3 other people who play online games at all. 2 man teams (if they all played TF2) doesn't sound like all that much fun either.

I maintain a friend list of 30+ people and add to it often, so finding people who want to try a map isn't that hard for me

But yeah I do see your point, all I was trying to say is that as long as I can get enough people to make a good game, then I really don't care who else is playing it.