Team Fortress 2 Update Released

[sooshey]

@Lain Where are you getting all these ideas? I've played up to silver ugc HL and 6s and most of the situations you describe are either hypothetical (and don't happen) or are rare. I've never heard complaints about any of those other than yours right now.

Also if demoman's main weapon is supposed to be the Grenade Launcher then it needs to be DRASTICALLY buffed, it's a very very weak weapon.

Demo main here, you're incorrect. If anything I'd say nerf it. 100 base damage plus 50 splash on everyone nearby is NOT weak. Just because you can't aim pipes doesn't mean the weapon is bad.

Yeah dude, you have to build uber faster than the quick fix medic (impossible), make sure they do not push out (unlikely) then you have to switch your medic from the uber you've been building since the mid fight. The main issue with how you've stated this is that you've said it like the Kritz and Medigun are easily switched between, when they are not. To switch a medigun in most maps means killing your medic, being without heals for a while, or backing off and letting your medic walk back to your spawn to switch to the kritz. In this time the enemy team WILL PUSH OUT and you will be back to square one. Plus you have to kritz PERFECTLY and hit EVERY SINGLE stickybomb and rocket to kill this combo. Even if you have been on Kritz since mid, if you lose mid you've just lost the possibility of having a defensive uber on last since if you escape, you have a kritzkrieg which is terrible on last. See why it's a issue?

No one actually uses the quick fix unless they want to lose. Even if they do, they can't give as many overheals, meaning their team will be easier to take out anyway. Plus you can still kill a quick-fixed player if you focus enough fire on him. It's not really that practical except maybe for destroying sentries.

It might be 'diverse' and 'interesting' to have a Heavy played to mid, but it is not FUN to play against a 475ehp monster of a rock class, speedy as a medic, destroying all of your demoman / soldiers that want to play middle. It's also to do with the fact that Heavy is the least skill based class in the game, he has less of a skill ceiling that pyro. If they really want to make Heavy anything other than a situational pick they need to make him based on more than two skillful abilities (Aim and Positioning) and make him less of an absolute monster when he DOES get that speed. It will be like having a level 3 sentry that is constantly getting healed on mids.

That's called teamwork. Heavy gets torn apart in comp if he's alone. Therefore he stays with the medic. Which means you need to use teamwork to get rid of him too.

 

[Lain]

Well I'm glad you're taking time out of your busy schedule to call me out on this stuff.

Yes, because it reflects on all of your other misinformed opinions. I am not just saying this because I am trying to defame you or whatever, i'm just saying you're speaking of something you know literally no intricacies or history of.

The quote was literally "sticky bombs give him the ability grenade jumping ability similar to that of the Soldiers' rocket jumps. His sticky bombs can also prevent enemies from moving through doorways, cover a retreat, and cover control points even when the Demoman is somewhere else." There's nothing in there about 'strong offensive pushes', the sticky launcher is a support weapon that gives demo mobility and ambush capabilities.

Wade Schin] The Demoman is the most versatile combat class capable or rapidly switching from strong offensive pushes to defensive area denial.
Actually listen to the commentary before talking about it, thanks.

Really? I just checked whitelist.tf and only 2 of the 8 current 6v6 whitelists allow Pyrojack. And it's not just the Jack. There's a lot of weapons that are banned because it wouldn't be 'fun' or 'fair', with no regards to what that actually means.
Case in point: the Heavy.

No, we really don't ban the Powerjack because it isn't fun or fair. We ban it from dumb desicions from ESEA/ETF2L admins. Ever since the powerjack has been unbanned we haven't seen anything happen in the ways of Pyro becoming any more useful than before. He is just as useless with it as he is without it. It's the fact that every other class destroys him in every situation exept for very limited ones. Even Medic destroys him (just runs away and arrows him longrange).

Heavy's skill is tactical skill: knowing when and where to get the drop on people, where to set up, when and where to move. But in 6s, apparently that's not good enough. Tactical skill is too 'slow' for this fast-paced, team-based competitive game. The idea that the heavy isn't fun to play against using the current 6s meta, and thus we shouldn't have him, is kind of absurd.

Okay now I know where you parrot your opinions from, Reddit. I have heard this thing from Reddit recently and it's honestly just dumb. EVERY CLASS HAS TO TAKE POSITION AND TACTICS INTO ACCOUNT. This argument is the most stupid I have ever heard on a large scale, because it literally means nothing. There is more of a positional tactics game in Medic, Demo and Soldier than Heavy will ever have.

If Quick-Fix Medics on last are such a big deal that you're complaining about them, then you should come to expect them and even, to anticipate them. The second you cap second, have someone go Sniper or, preferably, Spy. They might have a QF Medic, or a sentry nest, who knows. As for having most of a team stacked into one class, yes, it's unbalanced.

The problem is, you don't have to defend with a quick fix. You can constantly push, because unless the enemy also uses it you're at an extreme advantage. You don't HAVE to defend last, because as soon as they come up Sniper/Spy they are playing 5v6 and you can just destroy them.
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Where are you getting all these ideas? I've played up to silver ugc HL and 6s and most of the situations you describe are either hypothetical (and don't happen) or are rare. I've never heard complaints about any of those other than yours right now.

Yes, they don't happen because we banned these weapons from ruining the experience. The Quick FIx was unbanned for a while and PLAGUED the game, until it was SWIFTLY banned the next season. (Also just to note this was the one that didn't overheal c

Demo main here, you're incorrect. If anything I'd say nerf it. 100 base damage plus 50 splash on everyone nearby is NOT weak. Just because you can't aim pipes doesn't mean the weapon is bad.

Platinum Demo player here, you're incorrect. You're playing against bad players. A demo should hit maybe 1 in 4 Pipes usually? Unless the Scout is a dumbass. (See how stupid arguments like this are?)

No one actually uses the quick fix unless they want to lose. Even if they do, they can't give as many overheals, meaning their team will be easier to take out anyway. Plus you can still kill a quick-fixed player if you focus enough fire on him. It's not really that practical except maybe for destroying sentries.

Ah yes, you with all of your competetive experience should know what happens against a Quick Fix uber. Just to remind you that the quick fix uber builds MUCH faster than any other ubercharge and is just as (if not more) powerful than it. Given the fact that the medic can now rocket jump.

That's called teamwork. Heavy gets torn apart in comp if he's alone. Therefore he stays with the medic. Which means you need to use teamwork to get rid of him too.

...? This means nothing. TF2 is a team game.

 

[TyeZenneth]

Yes, because it reflects on all of your other misinformed opinions. I am not just saying this because I am trying to defame you or whatever, i'm just saying you're speaking of something you know literally no intricacies or history of.

I have never claimed to be any sort of professional, in fact, I would consider this an outsider's opinion. As an outsider, it's painfully obvious why Valve isn't willing to listen to 6s more.

Actually listen to the commentary before talking about it, thanks.

I've listened to it; albeit a long time ago. If you are seriously suggesting that if I loaded up the dev. commentary I'd see a flashing neon sign that says "sticky launcher is demo's main weapon" then by all means, stop beating around the bush and say it.

No, we really don't ban the Powerjack because it isn't fun or fair. We ban it from dumb desicions from ESEA/ETF2L admins. Ever since the powerjack has been unbanned we haven't seen anything happen in the ways of Pyro becoming any more useful than before. He is just as useless with it as he is without it. It's the fact that every other class destroys him in every situation exept for very limited ones. Even Medic destroys him (just runs away and arrows him longrange).

That still proves my point. The Powerjack is banned, because none of you want to take the time to learn to use it or the class it comes with. A good Medic can't destroy a good Pyro. He just can't. A good Pyro is not just W+M1.

Okay now I know where you parrot your opinions from, Reddit. I have heard this thing from Reddit recently and it's honestly just dumb. EVERY CLASS HAS TO TAKE POSITION AND TACTICS INTO ACCOUNT. This argument is the most stupid I have ever heard on a large scale, because it literally means nothing. There is more of a positional tactics game in Medic, Demo and Soldier than Heavy will ever have.

Now where did I get this opinion from?.. oh that's right, Valve. "With its wide field of fire, the Heavy's Minigun lets players who don't have great twitch aiming skills, still wade into the thick of combat. To make up for this reduction in the value of the players aiming skill, we amplified the importance of other skills. For instance, the wind up time before firing and the Heavies' reduced speed while firing forced players to anticipate both the start of combat and incoming enemy attacks."
The Heavy is an ambush and defensive class, and more than anyone else than perhaps Pyro, he needs to know good positioning. Oh would you look at that? 6s doesn't like classes that require precision positioning and ambush tactics. It's almost like there's a bias towards generic Quake-styled fragging combat...

The problem is, you don't have to defend with a quick fix. You can constantly push, because unless the enemy also uses it you're at an extreme advantage. You don't HAVE to defend last, because as soon as they come up Sniper/Spy they are playing 5v6 and you can just destroy them.

Now you're just being silly. As someone who almost always uses the Quick-Fix when I play Medic, this is just flat-out wrong. Even in pub scenarios it's painfully obvious that the QF, while a great generalized weapon, fails to compete against any of its brethren. A QF medic can be outfragged by Kritz medics, or outlasted by Uber or Vac medics. And you're calling me uninformed.

 

[pizza butt 8)]

lain just out of curiosity why do you think the grenade launcher needs to be buffed? and how would you buff it? as a demo main, i can say with pretty good certainty that the grenade launcher is fine how it is. you mention hitting only 1 out of 4 pipes, but that's still 100 damage + splash.

Okay now I know where you parrot your opinions from, Reddit. I have heard this thing from Reddit recently and it's honestly just dumb. EVERY CLASS HAS TO TAKE POSITION AND TACTICS INTO ACCOUNT. This argument is the most stupid I have ever heard on a large scale, because it literally means nothing. There is more of a positional tactics game in Medic, Demo and Soldier than Heavy will ever have.

this is true that every class has to take position into account, but heavy has to more than these classes because his positioning requires a great deal more prediction. you know, spin up time and everything. demo and soldier need to care less about positioning because if they happen to get caught out, it's easier for them to escape (explosive jumping) or to fight back (immediate damage weapons like rockets or grenades). medic just has different positioning game because while he can't stand anywhere, he has a lot more area he can stand because all he needs to do is not take damage. heavy needs to be able to effectively deal damage at the right time. just my 2 cents, as a highlander player.

you also say that a medic can easily kill a pyro, but that's really not true.


another thing i thought was interesting was that your original post about the quick fix was talking about pubs (or so i assume, as you said 3 heavies), which really makes the entire discussion about kritz/uber vs qf kind of irrelevant.

 

[Lain]

I've listened to it; albeit a long time ago. If you are seriously suggesting that if I loaded up the dev. commentary I'd see a flashing neon sign that says "sticky launcher is demo's main weapon" then by all means, stop beating around the bush and say it.

LISTEN TO THE COMMENTARY

That still proves my point. The Powerjack is banned, because none of you want to take the time to learn to use it or the class it comes with. A good Medic can't destroy a good Pyro. He just can't. A good Pyro is not just W+M1.

Holy shit, no. No. No. No. We have a platinum pyro on our 6v6 team, and he NEVER plays pyro except for last holds. (this is a region where powerjack is unbanned) You wanna know why? BECAUSE PYRO IS BAD AND THE POWERJACK DOESN'T HELP HIM AT ALL, 40 MORE MOVEMENT SPEED DOESN'T FIX THE PYROS MAIN ISSUE OF BEING TERRIBLE.

Now where did I get this opinion from?.. oh that's right, Valve. "With its wide field of fire, the Heavy's Minigun lets players who don't have great twitch aiming skills, still wade into the thick of combat. To make up for this reduction in the value of the players aiming skill, we amplified the importance of other skills. For instance, the wind up time before firing and the Heavies' reduced speed while firing forced players to anticipate both the start of combat and incoming enemy attacks."
The Heavy is an ambush and defensive class, and more than anyone else than perhaps Pyro, he needs to know good positioning. Oh would you look at that? 6s doesn't like classes that require precision positioning and ambush tactics. It's almost like there's a bias towards generic Quake-styled fragging combat...

I am sorry, but as someone who has played high level everyone knows that the Heavy is just a meat sack that sits on last. No amount of positioning or awareness will help the fact that heavy is just bad. The amount of tactical awareness and positioning to play Heavy is a lot less than most other classes. Just because heavy can't move doesn't mean that he has a higher skill ceiling for movement and positioning, it just means that he is severely limited. Ask any high level Heavy main and you will get the same answer.

Now you're just being silly. As someone who almost always uses the Quick-Fix when I play Medic, this is just flat-out wrong. Even in pub scenarios it's painfully obvious that the QF, while a great generalized weapon, fails to compete against any of its brethren. A QF medic can be outfragged by Kritz medics, or outlasted by Uber or Vac medics. And you're calling me uninformed.

Okay yeah sorry dude, I bet you remember the time when PREMIER LEVEL PLAYERS used it and the attacking team was not able to push last for 15 minutes.

example of the pre-buff quick fix used (take note of the spy and sniper being played, and the heavy sitting down and not letting any gameplay happen)

 

[Lain]

lain just out of curiosity why do you think the grenade launcher needs to be buffed? and how would you buff it? as a demo main, i can say with pretty good certainty that the grenade launcher is fine how it is. you mention hitting only 1 out of 4 pipes, but that's still 100 damage + splash.

U wot mate? I never said that the Grenade Launcher needs to be buffed. It's a good secondary weapon.

this is true that every class has to take position into account, but heavy has to more than these classes because his positioning requires a great deal more prediction. you know, spin up time and everything. demo and soldier need to care less about positioning because if they happen to get caught out, it's easier for them to escape (explosive jumping) or to fight back (immediate damage weapons like rockets or grenades). medic just has different positioning game because while he can't stand anywhere, he has a lot more area he can stand because all he needs to do is not take damage. heavy needs to be able to effectively deal damage at the right time. just my 2 cents, as a highlander player.

I agree that Heavy takes a good deal of positioning skill, but he really doesn't take more than the other classes. In terms of that anyways, Heavy's skill with doing so is very limited, he just needs to sit somewhere he can't be sniped or stabbed easily, and close enough to the enemies that he can do reasonable damage. He really don't have to watch any stickies on a door, sit out of the range of scouts, stay out of the bombing range of soldiers, stay near the medic and get in a good position to push out like a demoman does.

another thing i thought was interesting was that your original post about the quick fix was talking about pubs (or so i assume, as you said 3 heavies), which really makes the entire discussion about kritz/uber vs qf kind of irrelevant.

I said four heavies. And you seem to be out of the conversation right now. We are talking about Valves Competitive tf2 mode (No class limits, no unlock bans) Where you could run such a lineup.

 

[pizza butt 8)]

ah, i see. competitive beta, got it.
sorry, i meant to say nerfed, instead of buffed.

but in highlander, the heavy watches for bombing demos and soldiers, protects the medic from scouts, and other things. the heavy is the med's main line of defense, and his positioning and (more importantly) awareness keep the medic alive.

 

[TyeZenneth]

LISTEN TO THE COMMENTARY

It's not the sticky launcher they're talking about for offensive pushes you dope, it's the pipe launcher. The switch from pipes to stickies is the switch from "strong offensive pushes to defensive area denial".

Holy shit, no. No. No. No. We have a platinum pyro on our 6v6 team, and he NEVER plays pyro except for last holds. (this is a region where powerjack is unbanned) You wanna know why? BECAUSE PYRO IS BAD AND THE POWERJACK DOESN'T HELP HIM AT ALL, 40 MORE MOVEMENT SPEED DOESN'T FIX THE PYROS MAIN ISSUE OF BEING TERRIBLE.

And Pyro needs a buff, yes. That doesn't mean you have to ban him for being 'unnecessary'.

I am sorry, but as someone who has played high level everyone knows that the Heavy is just a meat sack that sits on last. No amount of positioning or awareness will help the fact that heavy is just bad. The amount of tactical awareness and positioning to play Heavy is a lot less than most other classes. Just because heavy can't move doesn't mean that he has a higher skill ceiling for movement and positioning, it just means that he is severely limited. Ask any high level Heavy main and you will get the same answer.

Actually, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't. The idea that Heavy requires less tactical awareness and positioning is absolutely bonkers, and I have no idea where you're getting it from.

Okay yeah sorry dude, I bet you remember the time when PREMIER LEVEL PLAYERS used it and the attacking team was not able to push last for 15 minutes.

And that was because the attacking team didn't really understand how to push against QF. They tried some generalized counters but nothing specific, like, say, kritz. Also, that game was played on Gullywash, and both teams were being really non-committal with their pushes, so no wonder they all stalled.

Also, I'd just like to point out:

U wot mate? I never said that the Grenade Launcher needs to be buffed.

Also if demoman's main weapon is supposed to be the Grenade Launcher then it needs to be DRASTICALLY buffed,

 

[WorldMaster]

LISTEN TO THE COMMENTARY

Well, there are two things about that. One is that the commentary's seriously outdated, as it refers to the old 2007 TF2, not the post-hats post-MvM post-every-single-update-since-then 2016 TF2 that we have now. As for the second thing, from the commentary, the demonstration 'man was shooting his grenade launcher when Wade started to talk about the 'strong offensive pushes' that you are pandering about. Also, Wade said that the sticky bombs were for mobility purposes, alongside setting up ambushes and defensive and something for retreats, not for ACTUAL COMBAT. If you want what equates to a purposeful offensive stickybomb launcher, well, that's why the Quickiebomb Launcher is a thing, to promote that style of play.

But, ya know, that's two cents from a pub pyro main, so my words might be totally invalid.

 

[Fruity Snacks]

-snip-

What I'm hearing/reading is "Valve doesn't listen to us and make the game around our single way of playing." Which is not "Valve doesn't listen." These are FAR different. Valve listens to a whole hell of a lot of people from what I understand, from all communities, comp or not. There is more than one way to play this game, and they have to balance it for all. This is not to say that the 6's way of playing is invalid or should be ignored, but it's not the only group/way to play TF2.

 

[Corvatile]

Also, Wade said that the sticky bombs were for mobility purposes, alongside setting up ambushes and defensive and something for retreats, not for ACTUAL COMBAT.

This is the crux, in my opinion. The way Demoman has evolved in the competitive environment is very different both from how he was intended to be at launch and how Valve intends him to be now. The Sticky Bomb launcher is - in Valve's eyes - designed primarily for traps. It's the reason why the Grenade Launcher is his primary weapon; they expect you to use that as your main combat weapon, not the SBL. It just so happens that the SBL turned out to be the better option and now we're a decade later and it's too engrained in the meta to change it.

 

[TyeZenneth]

This is the crux, in my opinion. The way Demoman has evolved in the competitive environment is very different both from how he was intended to be at launch and how Valve intends him to be now. The Sticky Bomb launcher is - in Valve's eyes - designed primarily for traps. It's the reason why the Grenade Launcher is his primary weapon; they expect you to use that as your main combat weapon, not the SBL. It just so happens that the SBL turned out to be the better option and now we're a decade later and it's too engrained in the meta to change it.

Except Valve made the quickie launcher specifically so the meta could change and stay the same at the same time.

 

[DrLambda]

The thing about 6s i never understood is the fact that on one hand they say that the other 5 classes are either unnecessary or serve no purpose other than defending last, and then continue to ban everything that might even remotely change this. The same is pretty much true for "overpowered" unlocks for the main classes.
I don't say the 6s community is wrong to do so, they definetely create a game mode that is very fun to play (athough not as fun to watch imo because of the lack of variance.) But, taking this into the perspective of classic games, you're playing with house rules. You're not enforcing the best gameplay experience for everyone, but you're changing things until the meta you want to exist exists, no matter the cost.
I have a background of nearly 20 years of competitive trading card game play, and there are multiple sets of house rules, depending on what you or your playgroup considers a fun game. None of them are invalid, but also none of them is more important than the other.
For myself, i am a man of numbers rather than general rules, might it be "play no land destruction" or "don't give the heavy anything increasing its movement speed." Show me that Medics running the Quick-Fix have a big win percentage over the Medics running stock over a reasonable amount of games, and i'll agree that the Quick-Fix is overpowered and needs change. Show me that giving Heavies the GRU decreases the metagame variance. Show me there is a reason that Pyro doesn't get any item that could make him better in any niche than one of the main 6s classes. Show me that two Engineers on the losing team rather than one makes the game run significantly longer. Do all of this by showing me hard numbers over a big amount of games rather than voicing your opinion, and i'll probably be on your side in any argument concerning this point from then on.

That's why i'm looking forward to matchmaking - Valve doesn't take any meta for granted, they want it to evolve from itself and are willing to take everything that is better than it should be in the context of every possibility down a notch, depending on numbers resulting from the statistics of 100s or even 1000s of MM games. This, in my opinion, is a great idea.

The only thing that bothers me is that they might kill or cripple MM by overambition. Forcing high graphic settings on everyone to make the game look good for the 1-2% of potential streamers will, should it persist, scare off huge numbers of potential players. Given the choice between regular 6s and matchmaking, i'd gladly choose MM for the previously named reasons, but the inability to optimize your performance will make it impossible for me to compete on any reasonable level, so i'll probably just go for leagues etc should i get the sudden urge to play competitively.

 

[Bakscratch]

Matchmaking

 

[TyeZenneth]

Matchmaking

What I love most about it is that it took those guys 10 tries to get it right but they didn't give up.

 

[fubarFX]

Alright youngsters, History time with Fubar.

The restrictive nature of competitive is not without reason, people have been trying to figure out a way to make tf2 an interesting spectator sport since day one, at a time when Valve was not really interested in making tf2 a competitive title (or at least it wasn't their main focus). The TF team and the competitive community clearly had different goals and ideals when it came to what the game should become. Valve wanted to make a fun team based shooter and they happened to birth a competitive community that wanted to shape the game into an esport.

Now, the landscape is very different. Valve has this intellectual property that's eventually going to die of old age or grow and prosper through esport visibility. It can only go one of both ways. We're turning to matchmaking because we're basically running out of options.

Valve is looking to invest time and effort in presenting tf2 as an esport which only makes sense seeing the success of both dota and cs. Turning to a healthy competitive scene is a good way to make sure your game will thrive and live on. But we are hitting major problems and Valve's headaches are only starting. We've gone through years of "dumb unlocks" to support the f2p model and it has managed to keep the game alive so far. Adding these weapons made sense within the design goals of TF2 at the time but here we are, in 2016. I think people are now realizing that you cannot add content infinitely to keep the game from rotting. It is not sustainable. I believe that's part of the reason why valve has mostly stopped introducing new game mechanics and slowed down on weapon reskins.

Now, if TF2 is to grow through esport, Valve would have to undo years of weapons that were designed around introducing game mechanics for the sake of novelty instead of being designed to make TF2 a stronger spectator sport. As it turns out, the earlier iterations of tf2 were better suited for a competitive experience. That's part of the reason why the comp scene is seen as old school and conservative, they have figured out a competitive format that works as a spectator sport in the early days of tf2. A format that was there all along, that they've been trying to preserve ever since even if that meant not having Valve's support. People will often say that the competitive community is alienating the rest of the userbase but it's not like they're actively trying to do so. Not to throw blame on people but Valve was the one to enlarge the gap between its competitive scene and public play with every update. There was a time when comp and pub looked very much the same except for the pacing and playstyle. The only difference was a focus on reacting swiftly to the opponent with solid decision making and being able to capitalize on openings through coordination.

So now Valve is trying to bridge the gap. Is it too late? are we in a dead end? can we reconcile the TF2 population? that's what we're trying to figure out. TF2 already has a strong competitive scene. Is it flawed? yes, it doesn't relate very well to what the game has become over time, Valve doesn't seem willing to support that as they simply can't undo years of content that players have invested real money in. Can years of content that was not designed to bolster an esport be reworked? maybe, but it's quite the undertaking. Could a new competitive format/meta emerge with matchmaking and the extensive weapon changes we been getting? probably. If so, can it take on the classic format and be the better experience for both players and spectators? We don't know, but there's a long way to go for sure.

 

[Mikroscopic]

I think they should make all maps snowy and see how the comp players react.

 

[Lain]

Well boys this is why i'm the resident wrong opinion holder on this site, can't have too many correct opinions thrown about, or this place might become an echochamber /s

 

[Corvatile]

Well boys this is why i'm the resident wrong opinion holder on this site, can't have too many correct opinions thrown about, or this place might become an echochamber /s

Keep it civil, Cyril.

Honestly, everyone needs to calm down a tad. We're talking about a video game here; being passive-aggressive about it is rather silly. As is rating people's posts 'funny' if you disagree with them.

 

[Oatmeal]

Wow, what's going on here