Hi spleep,
I had the chance to watch (not play) in the tf2maps competitive feedback test and I wanted to give my thoughts on some of the map layout and its potential comp viability. I'll try to give my opinion as a 6s player, but OFC its just an opinion, and should be taken with skepticism. I believe as the mapmaker you're free to take what feedback you understand and implement it, and disregard comments or opinions that you disagree with - it is after all, your map.
Note 1: competitive players like comparing things to other maps, especially those in rotation, I would say don't feel the need to model any areas off those maps in rotation if you have a specific vision in mind - its just that those maps make an easy frame of reference.
Note 2: I'll be using terms from the red perspective as the map is mirrored in a way that makes directional callouts different per team.
Starting out with the rollout:
+ I do like that as a combo out the first big door, two options are presented that seem equally viable (left-right split) - This mimics products rollout, where a pocket scout / medic can choose to go through main or walk up valley, this does create a minor yet neat effect of having diverse rollouts. I personally think that the combo will typically favor the left route, this is not only due to it coming out a wider double-door, but also because it will be further from the flank-cave and the cave-wall, where a fast soldier bomb or high bomb would probably come from.
- Soldiers on the sides is a sort of common concept - where combo plays central and soldiers on separate sides - one on the left, one on the right.
- For the left (cliff) side, I feel that the spam angle from the "china" equivalent (Between the wood panel and the house) has the most potential. From here a pocket soldier would probably spam and jump to either make space or counterjump a soldier taking control of the shed. I do think that the elevation level does make it potentially awkward as a rocket fired at the enemy stair-choke goes straight through both chokes - I think there could be more play with elevation here in order to make the space more interesting. On the far left-left side, I think even rubbing against the wall the space is a little awkward, I think a soldier here would have ability to spam and couter their own shed, but would have little ability to exert pressure on the point. Altogether I can see this area being used for an exchange (to get close), but I don't think it would have relevence in the rollout.
- For the right (cave) side, I feel that the medium health pack in conjunction with the small chokes makes this area a dead zone for scouts and a soldier's playground. For starters the existence of a medium pack on high ground makes me think soldiers will simply rollout as fast as possible for the medium pack, and if they win it, kill or lock out the enemy flank/roamer. This creates a rather degenerate case of - race to the pack - rather than fighting for space and positioning off their merit alone - I generally recommend against putting health packs - especially major ones - in areas where you would expect combat. In terms of the positioning and space you get from having the cave, it allows you to prevent the enemy combo from pushing up the cliffside stairs, but I don't believe you'd really see much action with players rotating in/out of the cave entrance. I think if the mid is won, the soldier can then rotate forward playing off another medium pack and preventing the now attacking team from being able to come in cleanly as they'll have to push out a soldier on high ground on the opposite side of the map they may come from.
- The mid structure is interesting, If I had to summarize my thoughts on it - the closer you are to the point, the less vision you have. Funnily enough this is actually a concept that I think applies very readily to bagel - where side houses are both flank routes and provide control over the point. Unfortunately, the cliffside does not really provide enough space or control to easily push up the stairs - and as a bigger problem pushing up the stairs not only is a easily spammable choke, but also renders any players on it blind to both flanks (a cave bomb would be behind them, as well as a run-through lower).
- I think there is an overwhelming sense of no ability to play or rotate to high ground playing as a medic or demo in the valley. This in conjunction with the vision makes the area feel very uncomfortable - I think medics would feel frustrated with having nothing to really play off.
- The route under the point is - for lack of a better word - degenerate, it brings focus for combat away from the point, and forces either someone to babysit the entrance or simply be looking backwards at the exit into valley. It only applies in a midfight as this is the time teams would have poor vision, this aside I would expect the open valley to mean it would be difficult to rotate into the under-route without someone knowing. The medium pack just as the one in the cliff creates very awkward situations, I think if players are low health having to rotate BACK for a pack, or close to their medic is what gives a team an ability to push in as well, having packs close to the point makes players reenter combat faster, but makes damage less significant and harder to follow up on.
- I think there is very little potential for a forward hold because of the far right door - an entry point onto the high ground before cave. This isn't a good or bad, I just think that as a note the door as well as the distance/cover separation between the far left and right doors make the map not have a strong forward hold.
- Intermediary areas - I think coming out of spawn - it would be incredibly hard to deal with a soldier hiding in the house where he has not only a medium pack, but also two small doors to play off. I don't really know how a scout could go about dealing with a soldier in there where if unnoticed he has easy high ground splash and if noticed has an easy jump out.
- I think the map design does a good job of enabling 4-mans, there is a clear division between zones where one can be sent and what constitutes committal. I think this division really helps some competitive players feel familiarity with traditional koth concepts.
- I think the map design does a good job of having options for taking exchanges, the routes to get into the point are very good for trying to take an exchange, I do think that this does pose a problem of when owning the point not really having a good place to stand (as a demo) to hold it. The cliff side is incredibly awkward to spam as a demo whereas on product it is a route that a demo can essentially lock down. The cave side, while literally leading to the point, seems like it may not get much as I'd expect a force through the door to point and a clean kite from the combo on the opposing side of point.
- This could be intentional design, but on a map like product teams hold aggressively on the point to stop the enemy team from being able to take space (behind their rock) - while on soot it feels like the valley is largely unholdable, and demo is relegated to simply being on or near the back of point.
That concludes my random thoughts on the map, purely my own opinions - and many of my thoughts could be completely wrong -but I hope they gave you some insight or sparked an idea for your map. I'm looking forward to seeing how you continue to develop it!
-FlipFTW
