- Thread starter Hanz
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Vigilante212
L420: High Member
- Dec 21, 2008
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Uriak
L8: Fancy Shmancy Member
- Apr 27, 2008
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From yesterday testing session :
First session was kinda irrelevant with an half empty server and some people (like me ) who obviously knew the map.
The global feeling is that your second half capture zones can be really tricky to take unless reds aren't given the time to set up some kind of defense. You may afford more routes I think, since the CTF hud can allow any focused defender to perfectly pinpoint the position of the intel. I could intercept scouts or demomen trying a solitary action with this method.
The second session was more serious. In the first round, the tower can be a hell of fortress. Reinforcing the troops upstairs may be tricky, but teleporters can be placed in a very safe spot. maybe the fact that window sentry can protect both inside and outside is a bit too much, as they told your. On the second round, the spire capture zone did'nt play the way it did on our server test session : we couldn't witness the sentry pair that could prevent any jumping action. Generally, there weren't many rocket/sticky jumps and people climbed the spiral the old way.
My feeling is that a correcly positionned über could break the defending position easily. The gameplay type is somewhat equivalent to a instant capture point mode. Touching the objetive may be tricky but it's an instant win if you manage that.
The last point is like the 2nd and 4th, but more extreme. Super easy without sentries, super hard if a sentry pair can be positionned. I found the medium ammo and health pack in the two sentry positions to be a bit much, since the spawn is not far. You may consider replacing the HP by a little one instead, or moving the it to push engies to leave his cover to reach it. On our server, there are not many engineer, because our spies and demomen are quite taltented, but sentry spam can be a issue.
Finally, I told you about the possible griefing with overtime intel. I don't expect to be really present, but I'm wondering whether you could/should reduce the intel vanish time during overtime.
First session was kinda irrelevant with an half empty server and some people (like me ) who obviously knew the map.
The global feeling is that your second half capture zones can be really tricky to take unless reds aren't given the time to set up some kind of defense. You may afford more routes I think, since the CTF hud can allow any focused defender to perfectly pinpoint the position of the intel. I could intercept scouts or demomen trying a solitary action with this method.
The second session was more serious. In the first round, the tower can be a hell of fortress. Reinforcing the troops upstairs may be tricky, but teleporters can be placed in a very safe spot. maybe the fact that window sentry can protect both inside and outside is a bit too much, as they told your. On the second round, the spire capture zone did'nt play the way it did on our server test session : we couldn't witness the sentry pair that could prevent any jumping action. Generally, there weren't many rocket/sticky jumps and people climbed the spiral the old way.
My feeling is that a correcly positionned über could break the defending position easily. The gameplay type is somewhat equivalent to a instant capture point mode. Touching the objetive may be tricky but it's an instant win if you manage that.
The last point is like the 2nd and 4th, but more extreme. Super easy without sentries, super hard if a sentry pair can be positionned. I found the medium ammo and health pack in the two sentry positions to be a bit much, since the spawn is not far. You may consider replacing the HP by a little one instead, or moving the it to push engies to leave his cover to reach it. On our server, there are not many engineer, because our spies and demomen are quite taltented, but sentry spam can be a issue.
Finally, I told you about the possible griefing with overtime intel. I don't expect to be really present, but I'm wondering whether you could/should reduce the intel vanish time during overtime.
Hanz, I had been thinking, and if you rearranged the blu's very first spawn, so that players were spawning closer to the gate, you'd have more success there, and not have the very first capture point so difficult to take. This is one minor layout thing that could contribute to the map's success. Right now, I feel like coming out of blu spawn I really have to hike to get to the front line.
Even if you made 2 rooms in which players would spawn, just so that they're closer to the exit doors, you'll help blu out tremendously, and not put red at any disadvantage.
Even if you made 2 rooms in which players would spawn, just so that they're closer to the exit doors, you'll help blu out tremendously, and not put red at any disadvantage.
Going through a16, you seem to have fixed all the problems I found in a15a >.> With this in mind, I do not think I will test your next version unless you do significant geometry changes/detailing/displacement work, as for the most part, I've found everything I can find, and I'll only find more if you change things.
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1490725/ctf_panamint_a160000.jpg
Discoloured pipe
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1490725/ctf_panamint_a160001.jpg
I can get up on this rock.
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1490725/ctf_panamint_a160004.jpg
I can build back there. From the looks of it, it would be pretty useless, and I cannot make people stuck by putting a tele under there, but...
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1490725/ctf_panamint_a160002.jpg
You see this point? You see those stairs I'm on?
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1490725/ctf_panamint_a160003.jpg
I can get stuck on the corner. I have no idea why this happens, and it's puzzling. At first I thought it was lag, tried again and got stuck in the same place. I tried again, and didn't get stuck. Tried many more times, and got stuck a few, didn't on others.
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1490725/ctf_panamint_a160000.jpg
Discoloured pipe
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1490725/ctf_panamint_a160001.jpg
I can get up on this rock.
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1490725/ctf_panamint_a160004.jpg
I can build back there. From the looks of it, it would be pretty useless, and I cannot make people stuck by putting a tele under there, but...
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1490725/ctf_panamint_a160002.jpg
You see this point? You see those stairs I'm on?
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1490725/ctf_panamint_a160003.jpg
I can get stuck on the corner. I have no idea why this happens, and it's puzzling. At first I thought it was lag, tried again and got stuck in the same place. I tried again, and didn't get stuck. Tried many more times, and got stuck a few, didn't on others.
1-1 to 1-2 tunnels are way too dark, theres no contrast between the rocks an the players.
That same area funnels all of red through one, rather small arch. there are 4 ways to get into that tunnel system FROM 1-1 but to get TO 1-1 i could only get through that one gate, which isn't good.
That same area funnels all of red through one, rather small arch. there are 4 ways to get into that tunnel system FROM 1-1 but to get TO 1-1 i could only get through that one gate, which isn't good.
Tinker
aa
- Oct 30, 2008
- 672
- 334
To address Youme's concern, I'd suggest removing the one-way door down below to the right (seen from RED's base). Seeing as this has pretty much seen zero use by BLU anyway - there are much shorter routes which give a height advantage as well - it might be good for RED spies, pyros and scouts to get behind enemy lines.
Jindo
L3: Member
- Aug 6, 2009
- 121
- 123
Definitely a major improvement since I last tested 
.
Most of my issues were said in-game but I'll restate them:
Stage 2: Blue team still faces the closed door, although this door is now clearly marked with a no-entry sign, I think it would be a better improvement for players to spawn facing the open door, remembering that the forward spawns in Granary can be opened despite having a No-entry sign on both sides, people might simply assume that the door will open because they are facing it.
Stage 3: This was said by me since the beginning, and I know that you will be working on it when you get around to it, but the final capture needs to cause something to happen. Taking the flag to the point for the last time feels really anti-climactic, especially with a large awesome looking laser above the point.
General: I think it was Stage 2, there may be others, where I saw glitches in the lighting and/or the displacement alpha on the ground:
---
Definitely a huge improvement on my last playtest nonetheless, it's looking good and playing brilliantly!
Keep up the good work!
.Most of my issues were said in-game but I'll restate them:
Stage 2: Blue team still faces the closed door, although this door is now clearly marked with a no-entry sign, I think it would be a better improvement for players to spawn facing the open door, remembering that the forward spawns in Granary can be opened despite having a No-entry sign on both sides, people might simply assume that the door will open because they are facing it.
Stage 3: This was said by me since the beginning, and I know that you will be working on it when you get around to it, but the final capture needs to cause something to happen. Taking the flag to the point for the last time feels really anti-climactic, especially with a large awesome looking laser above the point.
General: I think it was Stage 2, there may be others, where I saw glitches in the lighting and/or the displacement alpha on the ground:
---
Definitely a huge improvement on my last playtest nonetheless, it's looking good and playing brilliantly!
Keep up the good work!
Loving the new more textured map (I missed the last few alphas). People say it's more like goldrush, but the first stage feels kinda dustbowl-y for me.
The second stage's first area is very open and it was quite hard to make a push as blu. But aside from that, it feels like pretty straightforward afterwards. Perhaps we were playing better, I don't know.
The last stage's last CP has a sentry built underneath it. I suppose that a few demoman bombs can kill that off, or maybe a few direct rockets, but getting under that requires crouching, so it's relatively hard to take out. And it just looks weird with the sentry right under the cap point.
The second stage's first area is very open and it was quite hard to make a push as blu. But aside from that, it feels like pretty straightforward afterwards. Perhaps we were playing better, I don't know.
The last stage's last CP has a sentry built underneath it. I suppose that a few demoman bombs can kill that off, or maybe a few direct rockets, but getting under that requires crouching, so it's relatively hard to take out. And it just looks weird with the sentry right under the cap point.
Jindo
L3: Member
- Aug 6, 2009
- 121
- 123
I'll go through the map in single player later today and see if I can come up with any suggestions for gameplay improvements, mainly for defense on 2-2.
---
EDIT: So, I've just had a look at 2-2 in single player, taking my previous play test in to account, the main two issues I hypothesized are as follows:
Solutions shouldn't be too difficult to come up with for this:
Making the area easier for Red to defend:
Solving the issue of Sentry Spam:
So moving on, I've taken approximiately 8-12 screenshots of areas surrounding the final point (which a couple of screenshots of positions which lead to the final point), I've added rough ideas to some of them that could potentionally either make things easier to defend for Red or harder to attack for Blue, depending on your perspective of things.
Idea 1 - Additional Staircase
http://labs.topaz-games.com/kj/images/screenies/panamint/ctf_panamint_a160004.jpg
I feel that alot of players will choose to go to the open path, but they will then find that unless they can rocket jump in some way or another, they're actually quite far from the point and that the Scout is actually going to make it after all D:
This first proposal is an additional staircase going from the beginning of the open route to the same floor as one of the other staircases lead, this staircase would be seconds quicker than the other option(s) and thus Red would make it to the point sooner to defend.
Idea 2 - Blind Spots for Sentries
http://labs.topaz-games.com/kj/images/screenies/panamint/ctf_panamint_a160006.jpg
If I recall correctly, the area approximiately where #2 is was quite a nice spot for Sentries.
This addition would allow for players reaching area #1 to take the small jumping short-cut and avoid sentries thanks to the added fences.
The other problem was that the staircase leading up to the floor at #2 was also covered by the sentry, this new setup should make it very difficult for a single sentry to cover both spots successfully.
Idea 3 - One-Way Access Gate
http://labs.topaz-games.com/kj/images/screenies/panamint/ctf_panamint_a160009.jpg
As seen in Dustbowl, there are 1 or 2 gates in key-areas in the map where owning them will almost garauntee your team's victory, these key-areas have gates that only open from one side.
My proposal is similar, encase the area shown in the screenshot in to a building, and make the proposed doorway in to a one-way access gate, preferably in Red's favour.
This would cut Blue short of being able to reach Red's routes from spawn to point, and adding a building to the currently open-area would also force Blue to use other means to get to the point (as you can barely see from the screeny, Scouts on that level can double-jump straight to the point, or close enough to it)
---
2 or more of these ideas together might not work, but individually they seem okay enough to me, but then I guess to know for sure, you'd have to test them with real people.
And these are only my ideas, I don't have a firm belief that they will work, I do hope that they help you in some way, be it simply using those ideas or coming up with an even better way of solving the problem.
Hope this helped, good luck again with the map!
---
EDIT: So, I've just had a look at 2-2 in single player, taking my previous play test in to account, the main two issues I hypothesized are as follows:
- Red's spawn is quite far from the final point for classes that cannot rocket/sticky/other jump, they have 3 choices, 2 of them involve going in buildings and up stairs, 1 of them involves going in to an open area, and running up and around the paths leading to the point, all of which can take longer than hoped for.
- Engineers could have an overly easy time defending the point with Sentries. I think there needs to be strategically positioned props, walls and other objects so that sentries will be able to defend certain parts of the final capture point's area, but not the entirety.
Solutions shouldn't be too difficult to come up with for this:
Making the area easier for Red to defend:
- This could take some altering, but a quicker way for Red to reach the final point, besides jumping or teleporters, would definitely contribute.
- Diving and blocking off parts within the area, making it more difficult for Blue to navigate to the final point, without making it so difficult that they either reach dead-ends or are defeated by impossible sentries.
Solving the issue of Sentry Spam:
- If things are easier for Red to defend, sentries will most definitely have an easier job of destroying Blue, even if they don't currently. As I stated in a previous point, placing objects and walls in certain positions in order to create blind spots for different sentry positions, this will avoid scenarios where all sentries will obliterate the flag holder.
- Height advantage can be important, but with Sentries it is the opposite: If you are below them, they can't knock you in to the air, and so you have an advantage (with an Ubercharge, of course). The current set up is fine for this, as Red have most of the higher ground, and so a Demoman could relatively easily fire sticky bombs from the ground to the point and wipe out sentries effortlessly.
So moving on, I've taken approximiately 8-12 screenshots of areas surrounding the final point (which a couple of screenshots of positions which lead to the final point), I've added rough ideas to some of them that could potentionally either make things easier to defend for Red or harder to attack for Blue, depending on your perspective of things
.Idea 1 - Additional Staircase
http://labs.topaz-games.com/kj/images/screenies/panamint/ctf_panamint_a160004.jpg
I feel that alot of players will choose to go to the open path, but they will then find that unless they can rocket jump in some way or another, they're actually quite far from the point and that the Scout is actually going to make it after all D:
This first proposal is an additional staircase going from the beginning of the open route to the same floor as one of the other staircases lead, this staircase would be seconds quicker than the other option(s) and thus Red would make it to the point sooner to defend.
Idea 2 - Blind Spots for Sentries
http://labs.topaz-games.com/kj/images/screenies/panamint/ctf_panamint_a160006.jpg
If I recall correctly, the area approximiately where #2 is was quite a nice spot for Sentries.
This addition would allow for players reaching area #1 to take the small jumping short-cut and avoid sentries thanks to the added fences.
The other problem was that the staircase leading up to the floor at #2 was also covered by the sentry, this new setup should make it very difficult for a single sentry to cover both spots successfully.
Idea 3 - One-Way Access Gate
http://labs.topaz-games.com/kj/images/screenies/panamint/ctf_panamint_a160009.jpg
As seen in Dustbowl, there are 1 or 2 gates in key-areas in the map where owning them will almost garauntee your team's victory, these key-areas have gates that only open from one side.
My proposal is similar, encase the area shown in the screenshot in to a building, and make the proposed doorway in to a one-way access gate, preferably in Red's favour.
This would cut Blue short of being able to reach Red's routes from spawn to point, and adding a building to the currently open-area would also force Blue to use other means to get to the point (as you can barely see from the screeny, Scouts on that level can double-jump straight to the point, or close enough to it)
---
2 or more of these ideas together might not work, but individually they seem okay enough to me, but then I guess to know for sure, you'd have to test them with real people.
And these are only my ideas, I don't have a firm belief that they will work, I do hope that they help you in some way, be it simply using those ideas or coming up with an even better way of solving the problem.
Hope this helped, good luck again with the map!
Last edited:
- Apr 19, 2009
- 4,460
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What is it?
BrokenTripod
L5: Dapper Member
- May 11, 2009
- 248
- 65
I don't know what that is, and now I'm really really curious.
BrokenTripod
L5: Dapper Member
- May 11, 2009
- 248
- 65
WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
Awesome.
Awesome.