I'd like to post a modded Valve map

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by Mokagogo, Jun 21, 2009.

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  1. Mokagogo

    Mokagogo L1: Registered

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    Hi, I just put up a beta of 'plr_lumberyard_b1' over on FPSBanana. I was wondering -- I know the tf2maps.net rules state that modified maps are not permitted... But seeing as how Valve are actively encouraging this, and this map is adding a whole new gamemode onto the previous version, I was wondering if the community here at tf2maps.net would have a problem with me posting this map in the 'maps' board.

    At some stage I also need to post a couple of my original maps on here -- I'm pretty new to this community and would love to see my stuff more widely played.


    Cheers,

    Mokagogo
     
  2. The Political Gamer

    aa The Political Gamer

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    You can but the thread will be locked quickly.
     
  3. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    Valve are not actively encouraging modified versions of their maps to be released by the public.

    They have released their vmf's for educational purposes only. Modified Valve maps will never be made official nor recieve a warm greeting from the more experienced level designer community.

    Please make your own map.
     
  4. Loc_n_lol

    Loc_n_lol L10: Glamorous Member

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    Sounds pretty much like an encouragement to me... just saying...
     
  5. Randdalf

    aa Randdalf

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    Yes, I agree with Grazr.

    We generally like to distance ourselves from FPSBanana here.
     
  6. TMP

    aa TMP Abuser of Site Rules

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    Even so, we do not condone it!

    It is in our rule set, and even if Valve allows you to modify them, we prefer to have maps that have most of the creative processes made by the player, not by Valve.

    Wait, why is CP_Grinder on here then?

    Oh, uh, sorry, was wondering something. Anyways, if we allow the modified maps on here, it'd be only a matter of time that there'd be ctf_lumberyard_underwater on the front page, and I think we all know what would happen then.
     
  7. A Boojum Snark

    aa A Boojum Snark Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado

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    You aren't forbidden from posting a modded valve map.

    It's just rather pointless to do so, because most of the people around here don't like them and will look down on you and the map.
     
  8. Gaw

    Gaw L4: Comfortable Member

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  9. Mokagogo

    Mokagogo L1: Registered

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    I think it's sad that tf2maps is so close-minded in this regard. You're stepping away quite a bit from the way Valve treats _their_ community. After all, Valve could have said, 'Our games are perfect the way they are. If we hand out level design tools to every idiot, there'll be loads of really poor maps for our games out there, and who wants that?'


    Instead, Valve said, 'Here, enjoy all these tools to modify, extend and alter our work. We trust that the most talented and interesting work will always rise to the top, and we commend anyone who takes the time to learn how to produce game objects that work within our worlds.'


    Incidentally, both my previous maps have been completely original. I'm also a professional games designer, so frankly I'm not all that concerned with whether people who haven't bothered to check out the gameplay on the map choose to 'look down' on me. I'll sleep at night either way.


    Incidentally Boojum, cheers for the library -- it was very useful in getting to grips with how to design a payload race map. We just tried the map on a server today, and it was a lot of fun. I'll be posting a bit of gameplay footage on YouTube some time soon.


    I don't think this map is anything like '2fort with rain', by the way. Arena mode is underplayed: everyone can agree about that, right? Now whether or not that's because arena gameplay itself is unsatisfying, or what, the end result is that some really fine maps -- like lumberyard -- get underplayed. I built payload race into this version of lumberyard because I wanted to have a 'full game' on lumberyard, with respawning, and slightly longer gameplay. I also had a great idea of how to exploit the structure of lumberyard for payload race. I think the result is a lot of fun. If you all forbid me from posting it, then I won't: but the community will be missing out on a new look at an older map, and a whole new way of experiencing the level.


    [​IMG]

    Finally, this:

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Dr. Spud

    aa Dr. Spud Grossly Incandescent

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    Just because Valve says you can go ahead and modify their maps and come up with variations, doesn't mean they actually want the mod community to turn into copy-cats. It's just marketing-speak to say, "Hey! Modding isn't hard, get involved!" I'm sure Valve is just assuming serious players won't give a shit about "ctf_plr_tc_2fort_FIXED_redux_v2" Don't use press-releases to justify an argument (it doesn't work, even if it's Valve).



    People don't look down at a modified map because they're close-minded, they do it because the end result is NOT a good map.

    You can take lumberyard and toss a cart path on it. Or you can make a new PLR map in the lumberyard style. You really can't argue that the former will be better than the latter.




    With that being said, feel free to stick around here. People aren't going to hate you forever because you tried editing lumberyard. Just don't go posting a bunch of modded Valve maps because... well, what do you expect the reaction to be?
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2009
  11. TMP

    aa TMP Abuser of Site Rules

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    And besides, your map looks like it would play out as endless arena/deathmatch. It just doesn't look like it plays well for plr. It looks like a bloody arena. I guess that's because I know it's arena_lumberyard, but still, it's very compact.
     
  12. Mokagogo

    Mokagogo L1: Registered

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    It's not lumberyard with a cart path on it -- that wouldn't make any sense. It's lumberyard with 2 carts racing against each other on it. I realised that the structure of lumberyard geometry-wise could play well with this idea, with the carts circling round opposite sides but then meeting in the middle; and each door to the center only being opened once one team's cart gets close enough. Each team's cart actually enters the central building right beside the other team's spawnpoint -- so the ending of the game gets particularly frantic.

    As for 'endless arena/deathmatch': well, I'm not really sure what you mean by that: the pace is quite frenetic and intense, yes. But the times we played through it, one team always won within maybe 5-10 minutes. One time, it was nail-bitingly close, with both carts headed toward an explosive finish in the middle.

    Speaking of explosions, that's one thing the map is lacking -- I forgot all about them! Hadn't done Payload before. But I'm not sure that an explosion makes much sense in this context anyway, since both carts are headed to the same place.
     
  13. TracerDX

    TracerDX L3: Member

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    Close minded? Oh man...

    Here's the problem buck-o. The majority of the mappers here work really GD hard to create something worthwhile basically from scratch. You say you've done that, so you should know.

    Slapping a bunch of props and entities into an existing map, or changing a few brushes and calling it your own is like a slap in the face of that kind of work. Even if you somehow interpret Valve as "encouraging" it. You don't go walking into the shop of master craftsmen and present plagiarism. So yea, this map will not get a warm welcome from most real mappers.

    On the note of Valve's support. They want to see original ideas. You're just one of many yahoos flipping existing work into another game mode. Or adding rain to a map and changing the environment. (Yay, now we have over 30 versions of 2fort!)

    And as a one rather noob mapper to a "professional level designer", that's some shoddy work (Not Valve's but what you added). At least learn to plan out your track props or use custom track props that fit. :closedeyes: And that's all I can get from 1 screenshot. I am loathe to find out how it actually plays. I highly doubt its balanced and well thought out.
     
  14. Sgt Frag

    Sgt Frag L14: Epic Member

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    Well, I'm not gonna speak for TF2maps or Valve.

    But plr race isn't an improvement over arena IMO. (sorry valve)
     
  15. Mokagogo

    Mokagogo L1: Registered

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    I'm not a pro level designer, I'm a pro game designer; and I don't claim to be much of an artist at ALL :) Yeah, I guess I could have produced some custom tracks in 3DS Max or whatever. I did 'plan them out', but I didn't want to mess too much with the existing props in Lumberyard, which I would have had to do in order to produce lots of right-angle tracks bends. I think it's nicer being a bit unusual anyway.


    And, yeah, I know how long it takes to produce a map from scratch. You probably won't like the first of my other maps, but cp_airport_hall is here:

    http://www.fpsbanana.com/maps/53261

    Again, I haven't posted it on here yet. And again, the gameplay is better than the art side of things.
     
  16. NightHawK

    NightHawK L3: Member

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    Incidentally, if your a professional game designer then make another thing original. Not, Saving As plr_lumberyard_b1, delete brushes, delete arena game mode and add payload game mode. I'm just saying if your a "pro" why don't you make a new map like the other originals maps or whatever.

    Edit:
    Saw your post edited... Well, you gotta learn some time.

    From what i seen, Edited Valve maps like pl_dbheights (Dustbowl :() and ctf_2fort_rain, those maps look like utter crap.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2009
  17. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    Funny you should say that, actually. Before Valve released the SDK, anyone interested in Level Design for Half-Life had to search for the editor to utilise it. 99% of maps produced and released for Half-Life and it's mods were professional, original, not broken and had months and months of work put into them before they saw light of day. Each map released was literally amazing. The effect that this had was that only people who wanted to actually make maps, made maps. Not every dog and his friend who owned a STEAM game.

    As soon as hammer was made available to "every idiot" through STEAM the custom community saw a flood of "LAWL LUK my first map PLZKTHX", "box maps", "aim maps", "orange maps", "mario maps", "surf maps", "sniper maps".

    This initial influx of (pardon my french) Bullshit, destroyed the reputation of Level Design, particularly the custom content of TF2 and even Counter-Strike Source. Although Counter-Strike had a strong custom content scene before Hammer was made available by defualt to the Half-Life community. The majority of server owners that may have run custom content stopped or didn't because players were put off by the crap that was out there (short of Orange only servers which mostly see 14 year old CS players in them). The "actual" Level Designers that came from other mods and games had to fight tooth and nail to gain any sort of respect from the gaming community in general and still fight to have their maps put on servers.

    I can't imagine how much the initial custom content hurt TF2. I tried to show a friend TF2 and how amazing it was. We joined a server and the map changed to MarioKart. It was embarresing to try and impress a friend with the art style and gameplay of TF2 when they are thrown into a spawn camping marathon with bright ammetuer custom content like that. He thought the game was "a joke". It pissed me off.

    The majority of these pathetic maps are produced because those involved don't put in the time necassery to produce a worthwhile map (although i imagine some time was probably put into the custom materials implemented in mariokart). They just want to show off to their online friends and get instant recognition for their work. Which is why places like FPSB are full of idiots.

    I still stand by the concept that Valve released their vmf's for experimental use. Changing ammo packs and items and editing things here and there is fine. Documenting it is fine. Releasing it for playtesting and research is fine. Releasing it to the public and expecting the more experienced Level Designers to pay you any mind beyond "what a waste of time" is not a realistic expectation.

    TF2maps.net isn't close minded. There is just a certain level of professionalism and will to learn employed by most members. People are here to learn, improve, and be creative. Not re-hash stuff other people made in a get famous quick scheme. People here expect some work from you. Not border-line plaigarism.

    I don't expect Valve released the vmf's to see 50 different versions of gravelpit (or any other of their maps) running, although i admit it would be interesting to witness the gameplay changes and statistical differences; but they didn't release it so that people could edit small bits of their work and claim it as there own production.

    The smartest idea would have been to notice how you thought lumberyard would make a nice PL map and produce a layout similar with a refreshing new detail 'paint' job. This is all i'm saying. Throwing in some tracks and pasting in a new mode entity setup just wont cut it.

    P.S. We would love to see your original works.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 8
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2009
  18. NightHawK

    NightHawK L3: Member

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    This Post Is Win. :wow:
     
  19. The Political Gamer

    aa The Political Gamer

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    :crying: That was beautiful.

    EDIT: Thank you for giving me my 500th post!
     
  20. Mokagogo

    Mokagogo L1: Registered

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    Anyone who thinks he's gonna get famous from TF2 map modding is pretty deluded...

    This is my third map. It's the first non-original one. Admittedly, it's unfortunate that it's the first I've discussed on tf2maps.net... But that's just happenstance. My first map is fully released as a beta; my second map has entered beta but I wanna make a couple of displacements tweaks before I release it. Ironically, my second map is an arena :p

    I'm not posting about this to get accolades, or because I'm claiming to have done some amazing job. I realise that it's Valve's Lumberyard map, with some tracks et cetera. I made the map because I wanted to play the map: I think it's a lot of fun to play and I hope to see it get played. Of course I'm not as invested in it as I am in seeing my own original maps get played, no: but even so. It's sad that there's never more than a couple of servers with Lumberyard running. And playing it in arena mode is a bit painful because (unless you're better than me) you're only alive briefly, and then it's done.

    Ultimately, I think maybe the reason tf2maps.net frowns on non-completely-original maps is because, with this forum layout that you've got for posting maps, it's very easy to be overwhelmed. The site simply doesn't scale that well in terms of acting as a directory. So if you had too many 2fort_rain maps on here, you'd lose track. Having said that, I'm not really convinced that there _are_ a lot of modified Valve maps. On FPSBanana, mine is the only modified Lumberyard except for some kind of achievements map.

    Moka
     
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