Gameday and You. or, a word on etiquette, community and gameday.

[A Boojum Snark]

RE: the posts I deleted: You have no idea how much they make me want to just throw down the hammer and leave.

RE: about half of flame's post: If you read the first line of my post you would see that trying to counter last night's happenings is only going to annoy me because they are a drop in the pond.

RE: everything else: I shall reply later after I think things over.

 

[drp]

what a predicament.

after everything that has been said, we need to remember that some of us play and some of us build tf2 maps for enjoyment of the game. the game shoudl be fun, and gamedays should be fun. if we removed alltalk and disallowed casual talk between players, it wouldl take the fun out of gamedays and nobody will want to join. we cant have an environment where a players feels obligated to play. although we should note, if your map is being tested, we would appreciate you attend atleast the map before and after yours.

i propose this.

any map is admissable to a game day schedule, but users in the server can vote to skip if the map broken or its fairly obvious some stuff can be fixed without much feedback. this will keep maps from emptying the server, and keeping players interested. i also agree that somewhat sane class restrictions should be in place.

we arent keeping to a standard here, but class limits will help test a map with optimum class counts. im sure valve doesnt test its maps inhouse with 7 engineers on Red. there are some ideas being thrown around here, and thats great. but lets keep it civil. lets not turn this in to the steampowered forums.

 

[littleedge]

Lately there seems to be this, what I would call disturbing, attitude that it's the mappers job to play or watch the demo and figure things out themselves.

The mapper can always watch to demo to hear both side of the chat if needed.

Hey look, solution #1.

I personally have never tested a map of mine, so some of the following is simply what I expect, not what I know for a fact.

Put a warning on the Gameday thread that states that if a map is broken it can be skipped. A mapper should not release a map that is severely unclipped and broken. There is a difference between A) Having the edge of a roof unclipped since you detailed it slightly, pulling the roof out a few units for detailing purposes and forgetting to clip it; and B) Not clipping a roof at all and letting you fall off the map.

There is little point in having a demo of your match if you will be there currently. All you can do is watch what you've already seen again. Oftentimes, if something is bad in a map, people will say "Gah. This intel room only has one entrance. There's no way to get in" or "It's too easy to camp with sentries." Sure, people could be more useful and say things like "Put a path from here to here and then widen this one by 32 units. Maybe pull the intel out into the yard as well." But not everyone will, and you can't change that. Some people (like me) are bad at thinking of ways of fixing gameplay. So we don't mention a lot of gameplay fixes. So sue us. We're all human, we're a terrible, imperfect race.

In relation to your gameday rule of no updating, that's terribly stupid. Before, when gamedays were open two days before the scheduled day for gameday, having that rule would have been fine. But now it's open multiple days before, and what do you really expect us to do? Post a1, and then later realize (through an impromptu, like you want us to do) that we should change how the cart moves from base to base. So in a couple days, we release another version. This version is good, but that upper area is too useful for Soldiers/Demomen/and Scouts since they're the only ones who can get up there. So we add a path up to that route on the side. It's much better now! But now that gameday entry is completely useless.

TF2 Updates come along without much warning. It happens. You say you don't want to update the server halfway through gameday. You obviously notice how many people leave to update. For all they know, something important that they could use has been added or fixed, and they want that fix now. So why don't you say "Hey, updating server" instead of letting everyone leave and having people update and not be able to come back. You'll end up with the rest of the maps at 5 people. That's worse than updating and having gameday be delayed by thirty minutes tops. If the server updating is a problem because it's from gameservers, get a better host. Gameservers sucks anyways.

Now what can we do to save gameday? I say screw gameday personally but it can be useful. Ideas:
--Hire a couple more people to host them. Give favored members in the community the ability to host them so that you can take a break. It would appear you need one.
--Let people update their maps after they post. If people downloaded the map prior, they can delete it and download the new one.
--Alltalk can be off. People can watch the text chat for any live comments, go to their thread for any post-map comments, or watch the demo.

 

[Psy]

Going 1 week without updating your map, especially in early alphas, especially in contest entries, seems almost punishing. I had a ctf map lined up for testing... almost 2 weeks or something from the day I posted. I got it tested like, 5 times, and am up to version a4 already, and my gameday would be this weekend... What was the point of leaving a1 up for testing?

I cannot agree more with what you've said. I've almost given up on Gamedays now due to how infrequent they seem to be and how such a change simply cripples the development of maps in early alpha stages.

 

[DJive]

So perhaps instead of everyone blaming the gameday system.. why not wait to submit your map on gameday?

If someone puts an _a1 up i sure do expect them to update it.. what i don't expect is someone to well.. put an _a1 up =p Id expect to play a map that is ready to be or go through a lot of testing NOT a map that is changing hourly.

Impromptu testing is great for that.

we only provide the gameday.. not common sense.

 

[Flame]

Interesting idea you have there...

this way the mapper needs to be around so he can be there when everyone votes to skip his map. =P

 

[Randdalf]

I think it's better to encourage smaller impromptu tests rather than have long (and sometimes tedious) drawn out testing periods. I'd like to stay sometimes, but some of the drivel we sometimes have to test just ... isn't fun to test. People's minds drift, they try and make their own entertainment.

 

[Shmitz]

what i don't expect is someone to well.. put an _a1 up =p

I strongly disagree, since a map shouldn't even be considered a1 unless it's capable of being played properly.

 

[Dr. Spud]

I don't do gameday tests anymore because:

-it's difficult to get my map in a slot.

-I don't want to submit it and play it a week later!

-the US and EU gamedays trade off, effectively halfing the number of testing periods open, because I don't want to test my map with a 150 ping.

-I can't do weekdays, and all the weekend tests are at 9:00 AM! Yeah right am I waking up early just to get in gameday!


I really would like to be able to use gameday - it gets better testing than an imprompu test. But the gameday system is practically persuading me not to use it. :O

 

[DJive]

I strongly disagree, since a map shouldn't even be considered a1 unless it's capable of being played properly.

That's the issue then I'm seeing.

YOUR _A1 Shmitz's is far different then Joe User who started playing TF2 last week and made a map yesterday.

Perhaps we need to define and provide a more in-depth submission guide to gamedays other then just "The map must be playable"

While it wasn't needed *then* it seems like although more strict ruleset for submissions would be the way to go.

 

[Fraz]

If instead of gamedays per se, wouldn't it be better to maybe have scheduled kinda impromptu testing. Say every other day, at 8pm GMT/8pm some other american time - alternating.

With no specific order, people can ask for their maps to be tested, this means players can stay as long as they want, and kinda arrange it between themselves. Much like impromptu tests, but at set times every other day. I dunno, I prefer the impromptu testing, as much as I used to enjoy gamedays, I just seem to be doing other stuff now. School saps my time along with Arid so impromptu testing when I can is better, it fits to people's schedules.

 

[grazr]

But we can't garauntee that people read and abide the rules when submitting a map, DJive. Boojum is only able to find out the state of a map at the last minute, and so far skipping maps is seen as bad ettiquette; unless it is so bad it crashes the server.

 

[Shmitz]

The way I see, it, skipping maps was bad back when gamedays were six hours long and it was unreasonable to expect map authors to stay through the entire thing. In that situation, knowing exactly when your map was going to be played was important so you could be there for it.

With shorter gamedays, that's less of an issue. I think at this point if everyone agrees that they need to move to the next map, it should be done.

 

[Caliostro]

i also agree that somewhat sane class restrictions should be in place.

Ok, I agree with the rest, emphatically NOT with this. Class restrictions make me quit servers.

Allow me to quote myself from a post in playstuff.net:

I've had this discussion with someone before... Class limits are bad. I usually leave a server as soon as I notice it has class limits.

Yes, nobody likes 5 retards mucking around as spies/snipers, but honestly, what's the practical difference for them playing sniper, soldier, heavy or anything really? They suck. They're going to continue to suck regardless. Meanwhile, if there -ARE- class limits a couple of halfwits can lockdown an otherwise useful class that your team might be needing. I've raged out of a server after being unable to play Soldier when my team desperately needed it. We had 5 Soldiers. The 5 of them together, in the middle of turbine COULD NOT HIT 1 FUCKING SCOUT... I'm serious. 5 Soldiers together could not HIT one Scout running between them, let alone kill him.

So no, no class limits please. The practical difference between having a mental defective play one class or another is very little, in the "grand scheme" they're a null variable anyways, and meanwhile you might be blocking someone really good at a class, from playing that class when your team needs it.

So perhaps instead of everyone blaming the gameday system.. why not wait to submit your map on gameday?

If someone puts an _a1 up i sure do expect them to update it.. what i don't expect is someone to well.. put an _a1 up =p Id expect to play a map that is ready to be or go through a lot of testing NOT a map that is changing hourly.

Impromptu testing is great for that.

we only provide the gameday.. not common sense.

a1s need testing like any other map. How does someone jump from a1 to a2 without play testing? "Guesstimate"? An a1 doesn't have to have "updates cranked out hourly", and even a beta can have an update in less than a week.

Some a1s admittedly are pretty bad... Not like the mappers do it on purpose to make it suck, but they can't make it not suck without feedback.

I can agree with a more "sensible" skip policy (i.e.: if the map's clearly tanking and we've given all the info we could, and there's critical changes that need to be made before giving more info, skip it), but saying a1s don't deserve testing seems illogical.

 

[Shmitz]

So no, no class limits please. The practical difference between having a mental defective play one class or another is very little, in the "grand scheme" they're a null variable anyways, and meanwhile you might be blocking someone really good at a class, from playing that class when your team needs it.

This. Very much this. Nothing frustrates me more than when my team's engies build in terrible, useless places (and all build on top of each other so a single ubered demo can take them all out at once), and I can't actually go engy because the idiots are taking up all the engy slots.

Actually no, spies frustrate me more, but that's besides the point.

 

[MrAlBobo]

but users in the server can vote to skip if the map broken or its fairly obvious some stuff can be fixed without much feedback. this will keep maps from emptying the server, and keeping players interested. i also agree that somewhat sane class restrictions should be in place.

Ugh, never give people the ability to vote to skip a map. Its already annoying enough seeing rtv typed out repeatedly. Just imagine how it would be if people could do that and actually have an effect. We should have the ability to skip a map, but since there is a host present anyways, it should be entirely at their discretion. Just make the submitters more aware that if it doesn't work your map can and will be skipped.

And uhh...I see no problem with sane class restrictions, of course my idea of sane would be limiting it in a way that the limit is rarely ever seen, namely have it set at 5 or 6.

--Hire a couple more people to host them. Give favored members in the community the ability to host them so that you can take a break. It would appear you need one.

Technically speaking anyone with VIP membership has the ability to set up and run gameday from start to finish.

 

[Acumen]

here's an outsiders view since i never took part in such testing or submitted an entry - since obviously i'm a noob ^^

in the last weeks i noticed something in here getting really tired. the spirit of the community kinda changed. i think it was just after the cpoint-contest ended and the next big contest was announced. i don't know what it is, but suddenly the feedback giving people kinda disappeared and only the swaty-flaming folks stayed.

now everywhere i go (forum or chat), many people complain about not getting feedback on their projects and in return they slowly stopped to give feedback to other people's work in frustration - like a vicious circle that broadened out to the testing habbits.

and i'm really sry but i gotta rephrase this again, some of you people did get really "fast" in mapping - almost like a snapshot movement.
a couple of months ago, when i browsed the map showcase board i stumbled over lots and lots of screens with updated stuff and new cool features and ideas in the same mapthread over and over again. and you can really see how a map progresses.
now i often just see a oneliner telling me "gamepromtu bump a_112" and it drives me really mad. i told it 2-3 guys in the chat already who were complaining, as well. how inviting is it to any feedback giving person, if a person says "update, go figure out yourself...." and this observation really bugs me lately.
many of you guys throw out alphas and alphas as if they were for free and the one with the highest number wins a free hat or something. and on top of that you give other people tips about what excatly is an alpha (as if there would be some written law) and in theory this all sounds highly professional with all the alpha here and alpha there but in reality what happens is that map updates get put out so often, that here are really some questionable errors in there that people could have figured out themselves. it's like almost you don't trust your own mapping skills anymore and want feedback for the least little change.
while i find it highly important to rely heavily on feedback of your awesome community i think many of you guys need to get back to their more self-confident side of things and dare to change stuff on their own and make real progress instead of talking about how many alpha stages you went through in one day.

i know it's quite harsh but let's just recall some of the chatlogs in the past weeks. how often have i read something along the lines of "hehe, alreay finished a_37 today after a25_ today morning". I AM NOT A MAPPER but i never heard of any mapping method that needed to get out a babystep-alpha with every least single development step. it's almost like you lost independence and need approval for every single step you take. it's a penomenon that i'd call overenthusiasm - when someone gets so thrilled about his (even little) progress and gets word all around and at one point the mood turns from "wow you work fast - to wow would you plz calm down "
and somehow it infected quite a lot of people, even the experienced lot. never ever have i seen so many updates per day on a single map as in the last weeks. when the major contest started, many threads were just a constant update skirmish. one seemed to having just closed hammer and boooooom another map update.

a16-"hey there, changed the stairs from 2 to 4 steps"
a17-"liked 3 steps better - there you go - booooom"
a18-"you know what, i thought about it. what if i used the other stair ?"
a19-"ha, i just use a ramp now"

that's how it is right NOW. many many people seeking for feedback without putting too much work in presentation of their work.
a couple of months ago people were actually bothered to upload comparison shots and ask which version should be used. or tried different schemes and asked for decision help. i think we all like to comment on such things much faster since we recognize and acclaim others work much easier. because we see people are actually putting hard work and thinking in this matter.

like i said, i know it sounds harsh, but i think if people start gaining a little bit of confidence back and actually making bigger progress in a longer time period then people will automatically accknowledge this extra work put in and finally start to comment again. the maptests should only be one of the many tools of getting your map finished. like someone said earlier in here - common sense shall be free for everyone

 

[Fraz]

@Acumen, I totally understand what you mean, however, if you look at the flipside of things, and people go out on a limb and change something that was perfect as is, could totally ruin a map.

I still agree with you, and even though I try and get at least a weekly update of Arid out, with generally minorish changes. (Nothing gamechanging to a huge extent, but things to try and tweak flow and balance) because I'm trying to get what I feel is right, some smaller tweaks are needed, and updates for which I can get testing.

Lots of alpha maps, isn't a bad thing, as long as it's in moderation. If somebody gets really into working, then they might be enthusiastic about mapping in general, I know I get that way sometimes.

 

[Lord Ned]

So perhaps instead of everyone blaming the gameday system.. why not wait to submit your map on gameday?

If someone puts an _a1 up i sure do expect them to update it.. what i don't expect is someone to well.. put an _a1 up =p Id expect to play a map that is ready to be or go through a lot of testing NOT a map that is changing hourly.

Impromptu testing is great for that.

we only provide the gameday.. not common sense.

Those of us who have bad time schedules or don't have a name like Shmitz, Icarus, Icarus have a hard time getting Impromtu's.... So now we've got this fantastic and untested A1 and can't get into testing at all...

I'm agreeing mostly with Acumen here, though I'm guilty of some of it too.

What irritates me is solid blocks of gametypes. Yes, I understand it's a CTF Competition, and we're testing CTF Maps but seriously... 2ish hours of just CTF maps? Throw in an arena map or a koth and play a round or two of those to break it up, and refresh players.

That and a2's or a3's where the massive flaws haven't even been fixed. I've seen late alpha's that are concentrating on fixing how one area plays or something, when really, the entire map is too big. This is the kind of crap that needs to be fixed, hopefully before a1 even.

 

[lana]

What irritates me is solid blocks of gametypes. Yes, I understand it's a CTF Competition, and we're testing CTF Maps but seriously... 2ish hours of just CTF maps? Throw in an arena map or a koth and play a round or two of those to break it up, and refresh players.

Just an FYI, some of us actually made CTF maps before the contest started that we'd like to get tested. CTF can get boring, sure, but no map can be denied because it's another map of a particular gamemode.