CTF haters, why do you hate CTF??

[uma plata]

I'm sure someone else has hit on it already (didn't read the whole thread), but TF2 is very slow moving, and easy to defend.

It's all about building multiple ubers to take down the sentries, then grab the intel. There is no place for individual players to make a fantastic play for the intel, since sentries wreck any of that action

Put that mechanic into a poorly organized game, and rage ensues

I really think any good CTF map is going to have the intel in a fairly vulnerable position, and defenders are going to have to really fight to keep it from being capped, instead of sentry-humping their way to stalemate

 

[VelvetFistIronGlove]

I'd REALLY REALLY like to see single-flag spawn in the middle run it to your base CTF.

Imagine cp_granary with just the central cap point, which caps fully with only one scout in about 2 seconds - only you have to cap it 3 times with a 20 second cooldown between. That'd have the same gameplay: The first cap would go to whichever scout got to the flag first. The only interesting part is trying to hold the central area for the next 20 seconds while the flag is being run to its base, then you get another scout to grab the intel and run back. Most classes would see very little use, and the gameplay would be quite predictable.

 

[samn]

Maybe run it to the enemy CTF instead.
The problem with gamemodes like that is it's hard to communicate to new players what the objective is.

I'm currently making an alpine CTF map with a fairly open area around the flag. It's on a platform with a room directly underneath it with a respawn room. The offensive team can choose between two/three routes.

1. A short direct route to the intell that goes near the enemy spawn, although there will be some cover between that route and the spawn doors.
2. A much longer route through the sewer up into a building that has a small healthpack and a good place for snipers to watch over the enemy intell and take out engis from out of their sentry's reach.
3. Through the sewer again, but this time you crawl through a vent that drops down into another building overlooking the intell platform. This room has a one-way grate leading out to the area where the intell is, and once you have dropped into that room the grate is the only way out. Perfect for offensive engis who want to teleport friends close to the intell, although there is quite some distance between the building and the intell

Hopefully these 3 routes are balanced and give an edge to the team that attacks more, and gives classes that usually camp (like engis and snipers) a more interesting role in offense. I don't know till I actually finish and play the map though

 

[Bermuda Cake]

I always thought that a hydro style ctf map would be good fun, so it matches up the different bases each round. Would be hard to balance though

 

[samn]

tc_meridian does that

 

[HeaH]

I like CTF, I dislike the CTF maps. The fun thing about CTF is when the intel is out on the map. Most maps are just too easy to defend. Aerospace is very fun because the intel isn't too hard to get but the hard part is getting away, because there's only one route out.

 

[Sel]

Aerospace is very fun because the intel isn't too hard to get

Uhhh, I play that map fairly often and it seems that one sentry entirely locks down the intel :S

 

[Acegikmo]

Uhhh, I play that map fairly often and it seems that one sentry entirely locks down the intel :S

Yeah, same here.

 

[HeaH]

Uhhh, I play that map fairly often and it seems that one sentry entirely locks down the intel :S

Stop playing scout, take a demo or get a medic

 

[Sgt Frag]

Aerospace tends to be fairly easier to cap the flag imo if the flag is in the open. There are a few ways to attack from, demos can jump the entire bridge area.

It has quite a few ways to get into the intel.

I think the two things that make it toughest are:
1-the intel building is a bit cramped itself. The intel is in a very small dead end room.
2-There's the sentry posisiton across from base under the mountain in the concrete cubby hole, it can be hard to get at because if you are in view you are in shooting distance and that goes both sides all the way to the base.

Other than that it's a pretty good example of how a fun ctf should be set-up.

The spawn area is close to the inside path but it takes a minutes for defenders to get up on the roof (which most attackers use to get to intel).

 

[Xenesis]

Hmm, CTF.

Here's what I see are the major problems with the mode:

1) Win/Lose Dynamic is frustrating.
What I mean with this is that all too often a team will either get completely steamrolled if the skill levels are too disparate or come up against a wall with a stalemate if the skill levels are too close. It is very rare to get those "tense" games where both sides are frantically playing with all their might to avoid the hairline difference between success and failure.

2) Capture Dynamic is frustrating for both offence and defence
Simply put, you get the intel or you don't. You either crack the intel room with your attack and run away with the intel resulting in a capture or you just hit a dead wall and can't crack the intel room turtle.

3) Matches take too long
While especially prominent on 2Fort, CTF in general is a slow gamemode. Long matches are okay for Assault maps (Goldrush/Dustbowl) because they're split into phases but CTF matches really should be fast and furious as the whole match is static. Faster matches should ideally mean faster reshuffling of teams (As people tend to quit at the end of a match as opposed to during the middle) which results in less frustration at imbalanced teams and a reset allows a refresh in strategies and the teams if they didn't change to try a new strategy.

Also, I don't think the Spy inching dynamic is bad at all - it encourages a continual and co-ordinated push for the intel.

Of the three stock CTF maps, I'd say that overall Turbine > Well > 2Fort. Turbine is the best in that a co-ordinated team can pull out the intel and not have to fight their way past the enemy spawn, albeit the map's midsection is horrendous if you've got good snipers and engineers as they can lockdown the entire map...but that's another issue. But basically, the intel room can't be completely covered safely by one sentry.

Well is actually pretty decent. It seems extremely difficult to cover all exits and entrances to the intel room and the middle area is very hard for one team to lock down definitively. More through access would be better though (Like linking the underwater passages, yes?). The problem is escaping with the intel as although it's very easy to sneak into you have to sneak past the enemy spawn to get out - the ground level has a high player traffic and the rafters are narrow and are liable to get you trapped.

2Fort is just bad - The map funnels you past one single chokepoint, with narrow hallways that mean you have to fight your way past both a spawnroom and a supplyroom. Not to mention that the intel room is easily defensible with one sentry and needs an uber to crack with two because of the massive blindspots and the desk allowing a sentry that is reckless to attack as a spy.

I think the way forward with making fun CTF maps is more multiple routes. The good parts of Well and Turbine both have multiple routes that enable different classes while 2Fort and the bad parts of those maps have too many meatgrinders. Sentry cover for the intel rooms should be efficient at covering one route but poor at at least one other. There should probably be at least 3 routes to the intel of varying efficiency (Turbine has a good, mediocre and bad one but all are useable in different situations. Well has two major routes, one good one okay once you actually get into the building but getting out via the same routes is difficult at best. 2Fort has effectively one attack route and that's why it is a horrid map, despite the beautiful looks this map has).

I think it was probably said before - the goal should not be to struggle to cap the intel 3 times, it should be to see who can do it faster and more efficiently than the other team.

 

[Ezekel]

part of what i think is the reason that CTF is disliked by those who do dislike it on TF2 is i think related to what spike said. - the map.
unreal tourney (any iteration) has several maps in vanilla, most of which are very distinct from each other, and from other game mode maps.
this is an important issue to consider, as in general the majority of TF2 players seems to lean towards those who do not partake in custom made maps, and only play ones that come from valve/steam.
TF2 vanilla has: 2fort and well, and then later turbine.
well is basically a copy of the other well with minor differences, and 2fort is not the best designed map for tf2 (3 spawn/resupply rooms, and 2 points of path convergency prior to the flag room - one of which is right besides a spawn room, thus very engineer friendly)

so i'd say that i believe it's a case of A: lack of variety and B: lack of... i don't want to say balance, but more of a case of not knowing exactly how the generay public would play each class in a given map prior to game release.
- even though we only have 2 assault style CP maps in TF2's original release, dustbowl's 4 stages and gravel's 3 distinct zones meant a greater variety of gameplay style options AND less repetitiveness, in terms of scenario.

by extension to this, i'd also suggest another UT to TF2 comparision: in UT everyone is the scout, the heavy, the sniper, etc. whereas, in TF2 this isn't always the case, and scout is definetly at his best on CTF maps. my point is that although ctf can work in tf2, it's definetly not as easy as in a game where everyone is a jack of all trades, due to the teamwork factor being less important.


sorry about actually mentioning maps specifically, but i felt it was necessary in this debate/case.

 

[Mar]

Oh, god, I'm going to have FUN with this thread! >

But, tommorow, becuase today I have no time.

Fo our non-competitve friends, here is a quick, 2 page read on why CTF is broken (at least for comp. play.)

 

[Memento Mori]

One reason.


It is just too slow. Go on a 2fort server and try to simply focus on taking the flag, go scout etc.

You CAN'T GET to it past the 3 engineers camping the two possible entrances to their base.


And if you do uber a demoman, even use two ubers, only at a stretch will all the sentries die.

Then, finally, you go down, and get the intel... YES! Then you walk back up and theres 3 sentries back up again.


fuck

 

[Mar]

One problem is in comp play it is simply, take control of mid, build uber, push into base, run out with flag, lose mid, fight for mid, take control of mid, build uber, push into base, run out with flag, lose mid, fight for mid, take control of mid, build uber, push into base, run out with flag, lose mid, fight for mid, take control of mid, build uber, push into base, run out with flag, lose mid, fight for mid, take control of mid, build uber, push into base, run out with flag, lose mid, fight for mid, take control of mid, build uber, push into base, run out with flag, lose mid, fight for mid, take control of mid, build uber, push into base.

 

[Ezekel]

just had a couple more thoughts to add:

- different move speeds hurts CTF -> if there's a case of no sentries, scouts will dominate - i.e. the polar opposite of what we have with 2fort will happen, and instead of rounds lasting hours, instead you'll have scouts finishing the whole match in under 2 minutes.

again i lean back towards the maps themselves with 2 mor UT comparisions:
ctf_hall of giants from UT99: very exposed, but with the bumps in the paths and the myriad number of paths, it'd cater to a style of play that works for TF2. you'd need to put a roof over the flag area, just so sentries can still play a part, but with the wide angle between the major entrances, a sentry would not be able to effectively hold the flag on it's own.

CTF_joust from UT2k4:
a simple variation to regular CTF. red spawns in blu base and blu in red base. your team is always on the attack. such a map would be hard to design - you'd need to lean towards open spaces, with cover, but not too much cover. such that there's limited potential for a scout to sneaky-stealthy move through the map to get his cap.
part of the advantage here is that even if faced with turtling sentries, you only have to travel 1/2 the distance that you'd need to take in a regular CTF. i.e. if you have enough health to get to the flag/cap zone, that'll be enough, you don't need enough to also get back out in order to score a point.

also:
regarding the issue of spawn location, depth of intel into base, and other layout issues, there can't be an ironclad rule here. this will vary for every map, as the layout of the map may mean that a relatively near spawn, or one that is further forward than the intel is actually a good feature.

 

[StoneFrog]

I'm not sure why. In the days of QuakeWorld Team Fortress and even Team Fortress Classic, CTF was the undisputed king of all the gameplay modes, second only perhaps to dustbowl. 2fort and well (along with their respective variants) were and still are the most played maps in both QWTF and TFC.

It's funny how, on the other hand, the TF2 community seems to have more of an interest in CP maps. I can only attribute this to some difference in taste between the different "generations" of TFers or some critical flaw Valve made when porting over CTF in TF2, though I don't see one.

-----

The only possibilites I can think of:

-TF2's gameplay is much slower than other TF games. A procedure for attacking a base and making a dash for the flag room in TFC is much different in pace compared to TF2's.

-As an example, in TFC you'd go bunnyhopping off of your battlements and then concussion jump up to theirs as you zoom past sentry guns and plunge down the elevator shaft into the flag room. In TF2 it's more of a short walk, some big battle, another short walk, getting mowed down by a sentry, waiting an eternity to respawn, and then repeating it. Even if, in the TFCer's case, he failed to get the flag, it certainly was a lot more fun.

-Lack of a sense of accomplishment. CP maps reward you with updated spawnpoints, attack/defend maps change the region after a while, and Payload maps congratulate you with an awesome explosion of physics gibs. In CTF there really isn't much to motivate you. More often than not I think players are less concerned with capturing the intelligence and more concerned with just killing.

-----

Indeed, in Valve's attempt to neuter the classes' ability to survive and accomplish things independently, they have really broken up the gameflow of CTF. Whereas in TFC you'd have a bunch of individual medics trying to push through, in TF2 you're mostly waiting for your team's spy to sap their sentry or for your medic to charge up an uber so you can push through the engineer colony. Some may argue that this is more enjoyable ("lololol teemwurk!11oneone!1"), but I think it's the opposite.

 

[Mar]

If TF2 played like a fast paced shooter ala TFC, Quake, Unreal Tournament, CTF would work, but Valve made a conscious decision not to make TF2 like that due to the fact that there already are a million fast paced hooters.

 

[organdonor]

i love ctf !!!

there's nothing wrong with it if you have a good team balancer on the server if the teams are unbalanced (skillwise) it can be a little frustrating

btw this is my 1st post !

 

[ParanoidDrone]

a million fast paced hooters.

I'm going to hope that this was merely an unfortunate typo.

CTF has its problems for sure, but I'm not sure how many of the problems are tied to the game mode and how many are tied to the maps, or lack thereof. The reason I mention this is that there is only one version of CTF: you penetrate the enemy base, grab their intel, and bring it back. Rinse and repeat until point limit is reached. The more popular CP mode has 3 flavors: Dustbowl, Well/Granary/Badlands, and Gravelpit. Also Hydro, if you'd care to argue that TC is simply a variant on CP. CTF currently only has one version, and tbh I have a hard time envisioning any other method of implementing it that would still "feel" like CTF, as opposed to CP with extra strings attatched.

My apologies if this post doesn't make sense, it's late where I am.