CTF haters, why do you hate CTF??

[Shmitz]

And when you said three or five rounds, did you mean like.. control points or actual rounds like dustbowl?

Like dustbowl. Or, more specifically, like meridian, if rounds played out linearly instead of randomly. It'd be like:

|I| -- ROUND -- |I| -- ROUND -- |I| -- ROUND -- |I| -- ROUND -- |I| -- ROUND -- |I|

 

[Sgt Frag]

Interseting thread. I just read a long one yesterday at steam forums.

I like ctf and am just starting work on one now.

Trying to avoid these things that are things I don't like in ctf maps.
1: 2 fort has 2 long narrow paths to intel. If you are lucky enough to get in you have to be REAL lucky to get out.

2:turbine, as mentions, all teams exits to mid are on one wall. If one team takes mid it is almost assuredly over.

3:the 2 facing bases thing. I guess same as above, alot of them (2fort) have all exits aligned, straight across. You can stand at your base and see everyone that leaves the other.
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I really like the idea of 3 flag locations. That could be fun, mix it up and help with engi camping.
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I really like well for ctf even though I don't like well much for the other gamemodes. It's the openess, huge flag room. Lots of paths and places to hide (even though the front doors have same issue mentioned above. But at least there are trains and bridges in moid to break it up.

 

[Ravidge]

I think part of the problem is that the general speed of TF2 is slower than in older generation CTF games. Getting in and out didn't take much time, battles ranged over more ground, and bunny hopping the intel didn't mean moving it only two feet and letting the defenders just stand in the same place to cover it.

This is true, if you haven't played TFC then take a look at this: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rDht5JmKP8"]YouTube - Wheaties Another F%&king Avi[/ame]
(add your own music looks like the audio track has been removed from youtube)
It shows the speed and maneuverability people had back then, not even close to TF2.

CTF maps in TF2 should be easier to attack than defend, so that the battle is about getting the 3 (or whatever the admin set it to) captures FIRST.

 

[Fraz]

This thread has given me an idea for a ctf map Thanks dudes!

 

[YM]

Like dustbowl. Or, more specifically, like meridian, if rounds played out linearly instead of randomly. It'd be like:

|I| -- ROUND -- |I| -- ROUND -- |I| -- ROUND -- |I| -- ROUND -- |I| -- ROUND -- |I|

Are the TC mechanics flexible enough to set it up so that its that tug of war style rather than the random fights for the middle?

 

[Shmitz]

I think it's very much up to the intel rooms whether CTF is fun or not. Their position is important - they shouldn't be that far back (which they are in 2fort), because it makes it easy to get in and out. They should have many entrances and exits that give advantages to the attackers, NOT the defenders (height, cover, etc. for people entering the room, and possibly a nice quick escape route). There must be NO good sentry spots by the intelligence. If ANY sentry placed in the intel room can be taken down easily, that is good.

I have to disagree. It's fine if there's a "good" sentry spot by the intel, as long as there only one, it can be taken down by an uber, and it is not difficult to get an uber into the intelligence room.

The problem is not in discouraging sentry camping on the intel, but encouraging it elsewhere. If, as you suggest, the intel rooms aren't far back, that means you'll essentially have only three areas for potential flag runners: red intel, middle, and blue intel. This practically forces engineers to stack inside the intel areas, and even if there is no "good" sentry location, it'll still be near impossible to get the intel out.

The better solution is to keep the intel areas slightly back, but to actually set up the paths there as good sentry locations. The mistake 2fort makes is not in setting the intel room too far back, but rather a) forcing all players to travel through one small area to get there, and b) providing a spawn room right next to this area. To be a good CTF map, 2fort desperately needs another path to the intel.

Don't make it too hard for an engineer to cover the intel directly, but also provide better forward locations (but none that can easily cover all possible paths).

 

[Shmitz]

Are the TC mechanics flexible enough to set it up so that its that tug of war style rather than the random fights for the middle?

Yes they are.

 

[Sgt Frag]

Wow, that vid does not make TFC look very fun.

But I think Schmitz is probably right about 2fort. Of the last few times I've played I noticed that the courtyard and front door are ususally where the sentries are. And that completely locks down the map.
Very rarely do I ever see an engie in 2fort intel anymore. If you do set up there you basically camp the whole game and never see anyone, if you leave a spy saps your stuff. It's a boring place to be.
And if you camp the tight paths in the front of the base it's hard for anyone to get past and even if they do you are right by spawn and set-up before they get back.

 

[TotalMark]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wyCd93GcKM"]Fun with TF2 Vol Two: Dynamic Capture the Flag[/ame]

A little something I worked on a year ago, the flag is the capture point.

 

[cornontheCoD]

For me, it is because sentries exist in TF2. I am not saying to put nobuild everywhere, that would be stupid. I don't have a solution, I just think that sentries in CTF maps are extremely frustrating. With other game modes, the team is almost always pushing, so at least you can build uber(s) and take down the sentry(s). But with CTF, even if you get to the intel room, it is very hard to still have your team with you when you get there. I don't think I've ever had a teammate come with me into the opponent's base in a CTF map, and that's bad. The game is TEAM fortress 2.

Also, I agree with muffinman. There shouldn't be any good sentry spots in the intel room

 

[no means nomad]

One thing I don't like about CTF is the tendency for the bases to become impregnable fortresses. The whole game revolves around just getting into the base and pulling the intel out of the intel room. Once this is accomplished it's really difficult for a team to defend their intelligence because the timer is so long. Trying to keep it out of the enemies hands after it gets dropped ends up delaying the capture rather than preventing it. Even worse the intel lasts so long a single person on the other team can be responsible for pushing the intel across the map on suicide runs.

I kind of wish it was easier to pull the intel out of the base and the fight for the intel could take place anywhere on the map rather than always at the base.

 

[Spike]

Could you put together a balanced arguement? Make a point, then give some evidence of it, then explaination why this happens and how it can be stopped??

Sentries push too much, do too much damage, almost instakill for every class (except heavy), only killeable by ubers or demomen (which not always are able to) and 2 of them can defend a point for hours. Erase the sentries and ctf maps will be a lot more dynamic.

 

[What Is Schwa]

If sentries are gone than scouts kinda ruin it. I played a hell of a lot of Q3 Urban Terror CTF and part of the fun was chasing the flag as players tried to get it back to their base. Since everyone moved at the same speed flag runs were tense the entire way back to the base.

The fast scout makes chasing pointless. If the enemy manages to get the flag out there isn't a whole lot of action until they score it.

I also question the "funnel all players through a single arena/chokepoint" that dominates TF2 CTF map design. I'd like to see what happens when intel is extremely open and hard to defend, and than have three discreet routes. It might suck, but worth an orangebox playtest.

 

[VelvetFistIronGlove]

The biggest problem with CTF in TF2 is that TF2's best style of play is with a front line that moves through the map, with one team advancing, taking ground, then with their engis and snipers, holding that ground; then advancing again. Dustbowl has this, Gravelpit has this, payload maps rather explicitly have this (the advancing payload is the rear of the front line); even the 5-point linear CP maps behave similarly.

With the typical TF2 CTF map, you don't get this: the area you're trying to defend is not your newly-taken ground, it's way back at the farthest point of your base. And you can't--particularly in 2fort--form a front line, and take ground, as your enemies are spawning around you, or even behind you if you're in the enemy base.

The other big problem with CTF in TF2 is that both teams have exactly the same goals: Each team is simultaneously defending and attacking, and you don't get the different dynamic on each team that attack/defend maps of any kind give.

One of my map ideas was a CTF map that would try to take the best of TF2's battle style and adapt CTF to fit. I'd planned a map with a single flag; one team's job is to defend the flag, the other's is to infiltrate the base, pick up the flag, and return it once, for a single capture; the flag would have no timeout, so that it would progress steadily through the map.

 

[Cerious]

Most of the time the flag is in a fortified position, and is so far back it has little to no immediate effect on the battlefield. THUS, it isn't really sought after and is simply ignored.

A capture point is right in the middle of the battlefied, THUS, it becomes the objective and its reward is faster spawn times and a moved up spawn (something all players love).

 

[GrimGriz]

I'd REALLY REALLY like to see single-flag spawn in the middle run it to your base CTF.

 

[TotalMark]

I'd REALLY REALLY like to see single-flag spawn in the middle run it to your base CTF.

The first map I made here was like that, it had some design problems and I never finished it.http://www.fpsbanana.com/maps/54635

Knowing what I know now about mapping, I could give it another go sometime.

 

[Ida]

Oh, I got another idea.

When it comes to sentries, they're annoying just because Engineers turtle with them, right? Well, why not make the bases very small with no good sentry spots, and focus most of the combat on a larger neutral area that can be controlled by both teams? That means Engineers have an important job of setting up sentries to control the middle, and I believe that would mean it's easier to push against the sentries as well.

Kinda like how ctf_well used to be before they changed it, I guess.

 

[maxtraxv2]

so ah let get this strait because you cant use team work, or arnt skilled for CTF maps you boo them? because in a game with a lot of players Sentries are nothing...

 

[no means nomad]

so ah let get this strait because you cant use team work, or arnt skilled for CTF maps you boo them? because in a game with a lot of players Sentries are nothing...

Often times the problem is funneling players. Sentries aren't a problem to a push of a group, but they'll pick people off one by one if they're spread out. Without the constant focus on the flag like a team would have on a capture point it's easy for them to really get spread out, making sentries much stronger.

I'm not really sure how you could solve that with the incentive to capture the flag so low sometimes. It's really easy to just get caught up messing around killing players on a CTF map.