Confusing the player

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by henke37, Dec 31, 2013.

  1. henke37

    aa henke37

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    I have been thinking about what confuses players. It is normally not a good idea to do, but I think that trying to do a bad thing can reveal what not to do when you get serious.

    • Identical environments
    • Routes that have many turns
    • Routes that vary
    • Team specific paths
    • Dead end areas
    • Geometry that differs in rendering from physics
    • One way routes
    • Teleporters
    • Non ecludian space
    • Custom game modes

    Now, I am not saying that you can't have even a minor case of something listed here, but rather that they can be confusing, not that they will be.

    Now, please share your experiences.
     
  2. Penguin

    aa Penguin Clinically Diagnosed with Small Mapper's Syndrome

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    i want a non euclidean map right now
     
  3. A Boojum Snark

    aa A Boojum Snark Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado

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    10 ton dogbreads flying through the map streaming rainbows out their butt.
     
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  4. UKCS-Alias

    aa UKCS-Alias Mann vs Machine... or... Mapper vs Meta?

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    That is actualy not confusing. Its just madness. And a very popular mad map.

    What i see as bad things is:
    • Hazards without warning (imagine trains without sounds - maybe an idea for traingrid_pro?)
    • Loops (this means that if you walk the natural direction you keep getting on the same spot - to make a loop you should make a corner you know that isnt the main path)
    • Blind Bottlenecks (that dustbowl stage 1 corner is the example of this). Bottlenecks never should hide whats behind it as that amplifies the effect in a negative way.
    • Clipping that doesnt make sense. Why would you clip a 256 high roof while the roof next to it at 386 units can be jumped on? Even for map borders this already can be confusing
     
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  5. Beetle

    Beetle L9: Fashionable Member

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    and to add to that
    - inconsistent clipping or clipping that you wouldn't expect (but that might sometimes be the layout's fault)
     
  6. Crash

    aa Crash func_nerd

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    Large... train-like objects falling from the sky...

    Preceded by angry sky-voices yelling at them...

    ahem.
     
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  7. Faux Rhinoceros

    aa Faux Rhinoceros Also known as Dr. Element

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    People seem rather confused by flying heavies and fishtrees as well.
     
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  8. Egan

    aa Egan

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    Confusing things are just things that take a while to understand, so just make it really random with no coherent theme or direction of objective/spawn door/ammo/health/gravity.
     
  9. UKCS-Alias

    aa UKCS-Alias Mann vs Machine... or... Mapper vs Meta?

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    If they take a while to understand it doesnt have to be confusing. What you describe is the special delivery mode and mann versus machine.

    At first many didnt understand it at all. But those slowly became clear. A new gamemode takes time to get used to. And many times the longer it takes time the more diffirent it is to what they are used to.

    Confusing is when players who are used to the map still dont understand design decisions. For example forcing the player to take a non logical turn. To note, badwater at the red top spawn has a confusing part (but which can be explained hence its less confusing): First you can walk through a door, but once cp2 is capped that door closes and the section becomes a non logical dead end. Its still common to see players walk into it just to discover its locked. The only reason they cant fully lock the path is due to it opening on capping cp3.
    You can learn yourself to not have that behaviour, but it remains confusing to unaware players.

    Also: Anoying != Confusing.

    Anoying is to die alot by non logical reasons having to face a respawn timer.
    Confusing is not needing a respawn timer because you get lost anyway.
     
  10. takabuschik

    aa takabuschik

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    Can you even make a Non ecludian geometry manipulation in Hammer (or in any game engine)?
     
  11. Zwiffle

    Zwiffle L6: Sharp Member

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    You can in the Build Engine.
     
  12. wareya

    wareya L7: Fancy Member

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    Just my favorites.
    - Routes that turn the same direction several times with little visual change
    - Team specific paths
    - Lights shining on areas that look like they may be doorways when you can't see that there isn't a door there
    - Dead ends with no purpose (small ones for spies and hiding next to doorways are mostly okay)
    - Lack of sign spam
    - Bad/inconsistent clipping
    - "Labyrinthean" connector connections (cp_steel)
    - Identical areas
    - Chokepoints that look like flanks
    - Sign routes that direct you to disadvantageous areas, especially for 5cp midfights
    - Misleading or deceptive signage
    - Routes that are mostly parallel but rarely connect
     
  13. Ice Crystal

    Ice Crystal L2: Junior Member

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    Lack of sign spam
    I love how much signage people need
     
  14. UKCS-Alias

    aa UKCS-Alias Mann vs Machine... or... Mapper vs Meta?

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    Lack of sign spam doesnt exist. As when you think it lacks a sign, its the sign that people want some visual route indication there. So in every map you can expect there to be at least 12663894527 signs.
     
  15. YM

    aa YM LVL100 YM

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    72 hour contest coming up.

    Challenge accepted
     
  16. henke37

    aa henke37

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    But the tf2 engine can't do non euclidian geometry...
     
  17. YM

    aa YM LVL100 YM

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    That is what you think
     
  18. henke37

    aa henke37

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    Sounds like you are going to prove me wrong. I hope it is so.
     
  19. Kill_the_Bug

    Kill_the_Bug L14: Epic Member

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    Not having signs having too many signs.

    Seems like some of the people that I have been playing with need to have their hands held for them and escort them right to where the bomb is and then when you say, "There it is!" they still say, "Where?"
     
  20. A Boojum Snark

    aa A Boojum Snark Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado

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    On the sign topic, I've always felt that without signs the layout should be "natural" and people will instinctively go the correct way for all primary routes (using subconscious hints like light levels and coloring) and signs are placed to confirm/verify the instinct. I think this is why you will end up with a lot of people that get lost even when there are a ton of signs... it is difficult to override natural behavior, plus sign overload will end up having them ignored because it is too much to process.
     
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