[ARTICLE] Immersion and Your Map

grazr

Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle
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Mar 4, 2008
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Which was exactly my point, did you even read my first post :S

V

I'd like to point out that while things do usually make realistic sense, there's also a motif of incompetence in the tf2 theme.

Top secret rooms, with giant windows that let you stare right in, important intelligence sitting on a desk, this job has worked 0 days, etc.

I'd argue that a watch tower sitting in a pit like that, and not being able to see anything works fine with tf2's theme, and doesn't really break immersion either.

I was under the impression you were saying the opposite right here.

___

To expand on the discussions current path, Shmitz is quite right. There are multiple methods of justifying odd scenario's. By improving the consistancy of the narrative through designing your maps content in relation to the narrative, better conforming with the narrative's rules and grounding in reality, and/or lampshading.

Such odd scenario's will need visual support in the map (such as binoculors and 'mission notes') to have them justified, rather than having the player assume that something otherwise out of the ordenary, like a watchtower that sees nothing, or like the presence of a dinosaur model in your map, must have some logical explination for existing in a TF2 map. But that it is simply out of our comprehension. It is our job to make these connections in order to tell the story our map presents to players.

The story telling process comes through in the designing of your map, like it does through the adjectives on a page of text, each part of your map tells a story that allows us to relate to it and immerse ourselves. As an alternative we can have amusing unrealistic scenario's justified through this lampshading device. Spytech forms a tool for this device with its abstract-ness.

By including visual cue's that further justify the environment presented, we have followed a design process that allows us to keep our players immersed in an otherwise questionable environment. Unfortunately arena_watchtower does not utilise these cue's, the narrative conflicts and our immersion remains broken.

I actually wanted to touch on this concept but didn't really see an opening :p that article pretty much explains that for us though. I'll add it into the OP somewhere.
 
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Shmitz

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Nov 12, 2007
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No, that completely misses the point. Too many people have already mistaken this as some kind of attack. It is most definitely not about ripping apart Watchtower. The discussion is about immersion and dissonance, and for some of the points being made here, Watchtower serves as a good example that most people will be familiar with.

The only reason it has gone on about watchtower for so long is because people mistakenly think that there is some kind of attack here, and are jumping to its defense because they are friends of JoshuaC. While the intent is admirable, it misses the point.
 

lana

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Perhaps my phrasing wasn't clear.

I don't mean "Why did they build a base next to each other." The fact that they do isn't something that gets questioned.

It's "Why did either of them choose to build a base in this kind of environment." Why are the 2fort bases across a small river in a rural area, as opposed to across an obvious resource/infrastructure like ctf_well's trainyard or ctf_doublecross' track system.

Clearly 2Fort is a relatively large farm, and because nobody would suspect a farm of being a very defensive position, is an excellent place to hide your intelligence. It just so happens that RED and BLU think alike.

No, that completely misses the point. Too many people have already mistaken this as some kind of attack. It is most definitely not about ripping apart Watchtower. The discussion is about immersion and dissonance, and for some of the points being made here, Watchtower serves as a good example that most people will be familiar with.

The only reason it has gone on about watchtower for so long is because people mistakenly think that there is some kind of attack here, and are jumping to its defense because they are friends of JoshuaC. While the intent is admirable, it misses the point.

That being said, if this were an attack on Joshua, it would have already descended into gameplay issues, but we like to think that we're higher than that and are trying to stay with Watchtower's narrative. He's not a bad mapper, and he certainly has a lot of popularity. It's just that his maps aren't as immersive as they could be.
 
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grazr

Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle
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Mar 4, 2008
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This thread should be renamed [ARTICLE] Ripping Apart Watchtower

Baring in mind that for the thread topic I used a pool of example maps including cp_fastlane, ctf_third_law, koth_layton, cp_timber, ctf_2fort, cp_dustbowl and of course arena_watchtower. Arena_watchtower simply bore more fruit for debate than the rest of the example maps. There are afterall, 24 paragraphs in the original post, yet only 1 of them discusses watchtower.

What has come after has been nothing but healthy debate regarding the specific short falls of existing maps, and how to apply this knowledge to improve our own developing maps.
 
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Tapp

L10: Glamorous Member
Jan 26, 2009
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Clearly if a location bears no strategic value, a mapper can implement a different explanation. Suppose that the watchtower had a platform (with the cp on it) that descended into the tower, where there was a secret base, and the conveyor belt props were feeding gold into it. 2fort is a good example of this. Despite being in a horribly desolate and pointless place (no offence country folk) it contains the main base of operations for the entire company's shady schemes. Some recent tf2 narrative (both teams being contracted by the same administrator) might explain why they are so close. By telling RED and BLU to build them both there, she created conflict, and therefore ensured her job security. Now, despite having gone onto a tangent there, the key lesson to take from this is that there needs to be a REASON that RED and BLU are wasting people over it. And of course, immersion.
 

Sel

Banned
Feb 18, 2009
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I was under the impression you were saying the opposite right here.

And you were wrong.

I was saying redundancy - incompetence - lampshading, whatever we want to call it, was part of the art style. Your argument was about it breaking immersion because it was redundant, which is not what I was saying at all.
 

Sel

Banned
Feb 18, 2009
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But that's the point, it's not part of the art style. You're mistaking artistic license for incompetance.

Alright obviously I'm not going to convince you, and you're not going to convince me, so let's leave it at differing opinions!
 

evanonline

L420: High Member
Mar 15, 2009
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I don't think anyone was particularly harsh on Watchtower. I agree with every point made and Watchtower is one of my favorite maps. The binoculars idea is pretty funny, actually.

This is a really good read. I think the article did a good job of picking apart maps and highlighting strong points without being cruel in any way. It gives a lot of really good and easy to remember points. I'll be referring to this in my future maps, for sure.
 

FlavorRage

L4: Comfortable Member
Oct 12, 2008
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Bumping a great thread.

This is why I've started and then abandoned so many maps with the swamp theme; I simply can't think of a reason for anyone to be fighting over anything you'd find in a swamp!
 

Gundam

L1: Registered
Jun 22, 2009
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True. I've been thinking the same thing. Although it could be a biological research plant, with scientific labs and equipment tailored to the unique environmental setting. Or it could be a remote station for refueling, with secret storage warehouses.
 

lana

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Bumping a great thread.

This is why I've started and then abandoned so many maps with the swamp theme; I simply can't think of a reason for anyone to be fighting over anything you'd find in a swamp!

Missile silo, mansion, insane asylum with weather control device underneath, take your pick.
 

Tapp

L10: Glamorous Member
Jan 26, 2009
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Bumping a great thread.

This is why I've started and then abandoned so many maps with the swamp theme; I simply can't think of a reason for anyone to be fighting over anything you'd find in a swamp!

My personal idea is a massive concrete spytech facility, surrounded by unkept, wooden buildings. So the facility itself isn't visible, and doesn't conflict with the theme (kind of like saying 'why would anybody fight over 2fort?')
 

FlavorRage

L4: Comfortable Member
Oct 12, 2008
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I just thought of something actually.

Both teams use the swamp as a landfill for hazardous waste, but suddenly get the idea of blowing it up and spreading it everywhere, then coming in to "rescue" the local civilians and win them over.

Hence a plr swamp map. DIBS! :D
 

Radaka

L420: High Member
May 24, 2009
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