3 Reasons Why Community pl Maps Fail

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by Blue552, Dec 22, 2009.

  1. Blue552

    Blue552 L3: Member

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    1. Over Balanced:

    Mappers try too hard to create "balance" in an asymmetric game mode. Most community pl maps break up the linear game play by adding dozens of alternative routes, some of which or excessive and not even needed.

    For example; a U turn like the one in Gold Rush on the last stage, if cannibalised by a typical community mapper, would have several routes that bypass the U turn, which in their mind makes it more 'balanced'. Yet I think it's fairly obvious that it would ruin the map.

    Payload maps are not meant to be competitive, they are meant to be fun. Keep your maze of alternative routes to CP and CTF. Choke points can be good.



    2. Lack of Artistic Direction:

    Sometimes community maps have no place in the TF2 universe. Sure they share the same textures yet the theme is completely off. Team Fortress 2 is a giant mesh of different themes. From 1930's to futuristic. [or at least what people in the 1930's saw as futuristic] Just having the textures there isn't enough.

    Some people create new interesting themes, which is better then no theme at all. TF2 has room for crazy themes [look at Egypt] yet it still has to be visually pleasing. Bright colours with lots of light should be the go, dark maps are very dull. plr_pipeline was a night time map, and despite having a lot of light within the playable area it still wasn't as visually pleasing as say Badwater Basin.



    3. Fixing what isn't Broken:

    It seems that every mapper creating a pl map feels the urge to mix the objectives around. Out of the ordinary point layout to make their map 'unique'. Nothing wrong with change, yet why deviate from tried and true layouts. If players can sense some familiarity within your map there's a greater chance of them actually liking it. Valve have more resources and skill then any community mapper, from the popularity of their current pl maps this is obvious. I think the smartest thing to do is follow their guide for making maps.

    ==

    Some of you will disagree with my opinion, which is fair enough. Yet I think a portion of the TF2 gaming community would agree with me.

    Pl is the pub game type, mappers should have the goal of making it fun, not making it fair.

    P.S. KEEP THEM LINEAR!! no one likes running through a maze

    P.S.S. give them good names. Simple soft words are best. G, B, J sounds are good. A name like pl_zenith is just crap!
     
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  2. jpr

    aa jpr

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    generalization,
     
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  3. The Political Gamer

    aa The Political Gamer

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    While I agree with the pipeline being too dull, like Jonah said this is a generalization of pl maps. Also how many pl maps have you played?
     
  4. gamemaster1996

    gamemaster1996 L13: Stunning Member

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    Many pl maps are good like pl_dustbowl or whatever it's called (yes it's good even though it's a remake) and there are many other good ones like cashworks and most pl maps on here.

    They are not a fail.
     
  5. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    Dario has said that their new pl maps will have more interesting track setups, such smaller and longer distances between cp's. There's no harm in mixing it up, and you'll never know if it really works until you try it.

    There really arn't that many community pl maps to say which way or the other in regards to what they achieve. Particularly as community pl maps.
     
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  6. Ravidge

    aa Ravidge Grand Vizier

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    So the map should be fun.
    But in my experience, balanced maps are more fun than unbalanced ones. and I don't understand the concept of 'over-balancing'. If adding another route makes the win/loss ratio even out then it's a good addition.

    More attack options and strategies = unfun gameplay.. didn't know that, Thanks!

    This is a different topic entierly, and is not something only pl maps are guilty of.

    Building maps is a creative process, if I just wanted to make same old over and over I probably would have stopped mapping a long time ago, because it's boring to be confined to rules, set by another mapper.

    It's not necessary a 'fix what's broken' issue. People just like to experiment and try new ideas. Most pl maps follow the standard setup set by valve. The one exception I can think of is pl_waste... and that is just Icarus, who are these other mappers that make crazy pl variants?


    --
    As for the topic of this thread.
    In what way does pl_frontier, pl_cashworks, pl_halfacre, pl_swiftwater, pl_borax or pl_stovepipe 'fail', they are all decent-outstanding maps which follows the valve standard layout and themes and aren't named silly things beginning with 'z'...
     
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    Last edited: Dec 22, 2009
  7. A Boojum Snark

    aa A Boojum Snark Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado

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    Your first point is the only one that has anything to do with payload maps. The other two are irrelevent as they can and do apply to any custom map out there.

    You cite goldrush but never mention badwater. Do you approve of badwater? The only area along the main track that can't be bypassed with a side route is the extremely short area just past CP 2, and that one is irrelevent because that's right when red gets their spawn shortcut removed. By your definitions that would mean badwater is a poor payload map, yet obviously it is quite popular.

    ...what is wrong with you? All maps should be both. You don't need a perfectly even balance between fun and fairness, but if it is too unfair then it will not be fun for anyone (except the assholes that don't care about the team/objective and should go back to frag games).

    The popularity of valve maps has nothing to do with their skills or quality of the map. It has to do with the horrible mentality of the majority of the playerbase. Coming from TFC where the majority of servers ran custom maps, it is really sad to me that there is not a single custom map (real map) of any type that ranks above the least played valve map. The first one that shows up is pl_swiftwater, way down in the 70s.
    Players are lazy, impatient and demand instant gratification such that the maps that get played are the ones they are forced to download. The evidence of this is with maps like hoodoo. Despite the number of people that complain about it, it is still ranking in the top 10 played maps because it got included with the game. Had it stayed as a custom map it would again be relegated to the depths of the charts.

    On top of this, Dario (the creator of all 3 payload maps) is actually trying something different with his next map because he wasn't satisfied with goldrush and badwater. Some excerpts from when he visited the chatroom:
     
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  8. Westerhound

    Westerhound L5: Dapper Member

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    Oh right, I totally forgot how unobvious it would be that the map made by the gamemaker, promoted by the gamemaker, and then automaticly put into the game could somehow be more popular than a just as good map (or better) that you actually have to go somewhere and download.

    On the other stuff:

    We can always close some paths, and suddenly the map gets unpopular. The feedback we get is: "There isnt enough routes, and it gets easily sentry camped!"

    I totally agree that a chokepoint with 4 enemy SGscan be so fun, at least in public where the teams 99% of times are uncoordinated and everyone is just rushing in (and drying) on their own 30 times before the time runs out and guess what? THE BLU TEAM LOST!

    What do the details and theme even have to do with PL? Oh right I see what you mean, cp_orange, the perfect theme Valve never released. pl_hoodoo, meh, even valve hates the visual theme so much so they bought it to show Youmes lack of artistic skill to everyone.

    Valve also bought Steel to show how shit a user made gamemode modification could be! And then theres A/D CTF, the gamemode that made the TF2Maps servers stay empty for weeks after Valve announced it.

    Seriously? Why are you even here whining about us not doing what Valve does it? Even you are calling these things people create custom maps. Notice the word CUSTOM?

    Also note the personal. It means that it isnt made so that everyone likes it, cause nothing will ever be liked by everyone. Now go make a proper map instead of posting more threads bout how to carve or how to make custom entities or something else you dont know anything about so people might actually listen to you seriously.

    /rant
     
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  9. The Political Gamer

    aa The Political Gamer

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    Fixed it for you.
     
  10. jpr

    aa jpr

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    he was being sarcastic

    edit: unless you hate steel
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2009
  11. The Political Gamer

    aa The Political Gamer

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    I love that map to death. ;-;
     
  12. megawac

    megawac L4: Comfortable Member

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    I take offense to this, why must you steriotype maps and their mappers :crying:
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2009
  13. MangyCarface

    aa MangyCarface Mapper

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    Can't agree with any of these points. What's with the lecturing?
     
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  14. Vander

    Vander L8: Fancy Shmancy Member

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    I find myself disagreeing with every one of your points.

    It's good that you are trying to help, but you have some seriously flawed mapping theories.
     
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  15. owly-oop

    aa owly-oop im birb

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    I can't help but to read your post in a teenage boy voice who goes to protests and calls himself a "professional political peacekeeper"
     
  16. Rikka

    Rikka L5: Dapper Member

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    The 30's and the 60's are not the same at all. Why has no one pointed that out?
     
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  17. Shmitz

    aa Shmitz Old Hat

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    I know this is a little mind blowing, but consider this: Objects and buildings that were built in the 30s still existed in the 60s! Crazy, isn't it?
     
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  18. Penguin

    aa Penguin Clinically Diagnosed with Small Mapper's Syndrome

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    I don't believe you.
     
  19. UKCS-Alias

    aa UKCS-Alias Mann vs Machine... or... Mapper vs Meta?

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    Most of those 30's buildings in europe didnt last that long... there are 5 years in that where alot of buildings were modified so they got more holes. Probably to support rocket jumpers... no wonder the germans lost :p Rocket jumping doesnt work in real life.

    I dont think the artistic style is too important. I agree that a map must look good. Frontier often has some parts that dont look finished yet it looks ok enough to play on. And funny enough, his twisted gameplay overruled it and it became an EXTREMELY popular map with instant respawn.

    You cant say that when a map did some weird changes that it makes the map bad. You can do quite alot actualy and the players will like it as they call it variety. Something CSS lacked which was why in tf2 new maps are welcome and in css they stick to mostly dust2 (yes, tf2 has the 2fort group but compared to css thats nothing).
     
  20. Waif

    Waif L7: Fancy Member

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    Geez what type of mapping community is this?

    No need to smite the guy with sarcastic remarks, he said himself that not everyone would agreee with his points. If you don't agree you can at least state plainly why and not tear the shit out of him so he won't dare make another thread again.