18 page paper on TF2

Nineaxis

Quack Doctor
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May 19, 2008
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BagofChips, we're not talking about the entire comp community, or the entire pub community. We're talking about right here, right now, at this forum, and the users posting on it. This view is limited, yes, but it also justifies what we've said: comp players tend to come onto our forum, act like they are superior to us and whatever they say should be done, and generally are obnoxious. Mar, for example, only posts here to basically piss of 99% of the users (that is, pubbers). I have yet to see him contribute really anything to the mapping community, he just comes in here, posts crap like this, and then fights us about how comp players are the bestestest peoples on the earth. I'm sure there are "good" comp players out there, but until one comes here and treats pubbers like human beings instead of piles of crap, my general view still stands.

About maps: balancing for 95% of TF2 players comes before the other 5%. And that means balancing for nine classes, 24 players. Seriously, you can't expect to not consider 5 of the classes in your map's design, have it play well in a comp game, and expect that balance to just magically flow with a team with 3 engies in a public game. Balance your map for the actual game, then look at how it plays competitively and make changes that help comp gameflow but don't hurt pub balance.
 

Cold

L1: Registered
May 23, 2009
31
5
Competitive players are not opposed to change. You will notice Chro strongly approved of Jarate and Huntsman while he trashed the Sandman and Razorback. They oppose useless changes or those that detract from the game.

The Sandman was found to break the game. It made the strongest 1v1 class even better at winning 1v1. The Sandman was a guaranteed kill on all but a buffed Soldier or Heavy. You didn't dodge it, the Scouts missed with it. It takes the victim's skill out of the equation.

Just run a Pyro in 6v6 to counter the Sandman? Utterly rediculous. Not only is it silly to be forced to run a Pyro to counter 1 weapon, it also doesn't work. Do you think the Scouts will use the Sandman when the Pyro is there to reflect? No, they will flank, or search for lone targets to pick off. The Pyro can't be everywhere and would most likely ward off sandman attacks on the medic combo. Even if the Pyro completely negated the power of the Sandman it would be unwise to run him. In many situations, it would be like playing a man down. The Pyro lacks any mobility and you're going to be trading a Soldier or Scout for him. Trade a Scout and your lone Scout is going to lose to the two Scouts on the other team who are working together. Your Scout will be unable to stop them and they will constantly take out your Demoman and Medic.

Many casual players feel insulted that competitive players 'rarely' play the other 5 classes, preferring their elitist core classes. BoC gave true reasons for the disuse, for the most part. Competitive players DO WHAT WORKS. 2 Scouts, 2 Soldiers, 1 Demo, 1 Medic works. Much of this article are ideas to make the other classes viable. Competitive players would love to use the other classes but at the present they are situational and often set the team back. Sniper, for example is highly situational. He is used on Gravelpit, and on points like 1 and 2 of Granary. If you aren't good enough to get a lot of picks with him, you are being useless to the team and it's like a 5v6. Engineers are farrrrrr too slow to be considered for the middle fight. If his sentries built in 5 seconds he could be an asset by dropping a sneaky sentry to catch enemies or to block an area. Instead he has to build behind the fight, and that means you're planning on the enemy winning the middle fight, and they probably will with a 5v6.

Basically the idea of this article is if it works in a competitive environment, it will work in a casual/pub environment. This is true. There are so many players who seem to think if the other 5 classes are made useful in a competitive format, they will be useless in casual games and the game will cater only to competitive play.



I don't think Mar plays competitively, I'm pretty sure he just copy/pastes Chro's arguments.
 

Dr. Spud

Grossly Incandescent
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Mar 23, 2009
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They oppose useless changes or those that detract from the game.

It's just that... those "useless" changes often make pub games much more fun. For instance, the Sandman is not overpowered in pub games, because of how many people are on the battlefield to help out their stunned teammate.

I'm not stepping all over your post or anything, just I see that phrase used a lot.
 

TMP

Ancient Pyro Main
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Aug 11, 2008
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Thanks for getting some arguments against my antisandman pyroing thing. There's just one thing I don't quite understand.

Pyro is destroyed too easily by scouts and soldiers

It might be because I'm obsessive with pyro and train with it consistantly, but I have no trouble with soldiers of any skill level. Scouts, yes, I hate those bastards, but soldiers aren't hard.

(I haven't played against CEVO-P tier players, unless you count an epic fail scrim I was in against CrackClan, if they're that quality (I reflectkilled one of them :D), I think, but I have matched against people who were entering CEVO-A, and they almost recruited me for my pyroing.)


Oh, yeah, meant to mention another thing. I like some of his suggestions (The ones that probably already are in), but some just made no sense (The flamethrower AOE explosion...?). That generally covers my thoughts on the paper. I have got to quit editing this post.
 
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Rikka

L5: Dapper Member
Feb 10, 2009
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If you want to prove them wrong about the Pyro, then just bragging won't do it. :p You'll have to prove it to them.
 

TMP

Ancient Pyro Main
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Aug 11, 2008
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If you want to prove them wrong about the Pyro, then just bragging won't do it. :p You'll have to prove it to them.

I'm willing to :p

Just I have taken a break from the comp scene to work on mapping, so I can't pull any demos out (I stopped shortly before the Sniper update iirc). But I'll still go head-to-head in 1v1 or so.
 

Cold

L1: Registered
May 23, 2009
31
5
It is of course possible to beat Soldiers, but they can shoot rockets at faster intervals than your airblast recharges. If they get one rocket to hit you they can probably then beat you in a shotgun fight. If they have a medic you have little to no chance.
 

grazr

Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle
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Mar 4, 2008
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How anyone from this forum can claim that TF2F is a cess pool of idiocy after reading this thread is beyond me.

...

I love you guys claiming comp players are obnoxious ass holes. Are you trying to tell me pubs aren't? I can hop in a random pub server, and there's an 80% chance someone is mic spamming music.

If I go on a more competitively geared server(Gpit / push cp only, 6v6 or even 8v8) I rarely run into obnoxious people. Comp players also seem to talk and chat a lot less, focusing on the game.

A lot of what chro says is true / correct. If you want to stick your fingers in your ears and ignore him while you continue to play 24 / 7 32 man dustbowl servers, basing balance off of them, fine. Just don't try to talk TF2 when you obviously don't know how it's played. (mr. scouts-should-double-jump-in-combat and mr. run-a-pyro-to-counter-stunman)
.

I'm sorry, but:

Could you please quote me on when i called competitive players obnoxious.
Could you please quote me on when i called TF2F a cess pool of idiocy.

Just don't try to talk TF2 when you obviously don't know how it's played.

Your rant just proves exactly what all the people claiming how retarded comp players act, are trying to say. I have never personally claimed competitive players are arragont, i can't be arsed with sucking myself into this pointless arguement. But you don't do yourself any favours when you constantly bang on about how hard done by you are, how no one listens to you and you deserve so much more respect. Respect you will not recieve when you condescend me as such, in exactly the manor you are complaining about yourself. Dare i use the word hypocrit?

If god gives you lemons, you find a new god. If 80% of the time you join a server and someone is mic spamming, you need to find yourself a new server. Or god forbid just use the built in mute function. There are plenty of servers out there with vote kick or active admins/donators with administrative powers, if you're to lazy to bring up the console ingame.

You seem to take yourself a little too seriously.

Claiming i limit my playing experience to 24/7, 32 player dustbowl servers (which by the way, just so you do know, is untrue). Egotistically claiming i don't know how to play TF2, and that you do (particularly when you don't know me), and using the defence of a minority to prove your point as valid, does not make it anymore valid than it was previously.

The fact of the matter is precisely how Nineaxis put it. This is a 'public' game designed for large player numbers (24+/-) Where there is enough room for medic heavy combo's, engineers and their sentry guns and spy's on a team. The game was not designed for 6 vs 6, and why would it be, with 9 classes? That as you said yourself, become unbalanced against a team using the standard competitive play class setup.
 

Grimes

L1: Registered
Jun 4, 2009
45
4
I do not understand the point of this paper. He just made an 18 pg opinion on the balance and class makeup of tf2. Most of this has been said time and time again on any TF forum, its just this time the author decided to save it as a pdf and for some reason people seem to be "wow'd" by this mysterious technology developed by Adobe.

All in all what I gathered from reading this was that it was a nerdcore review of the unlocks and changes made thus far from the perspective of someone who thinks highly of themselves. It isn't an effective overview to be used by mappers because half the paper is opinion on changes that should be made to the game. Most of what he does say of the factual mechanics of each class is information that is well known amongst mappers or could be gathered from a play testing session.
 

Cold

L1: Registered
May 23, 2009
31
5
I do not understand the point of this paper. He just made an 18 pg opinion on the balance and class makeup of tf2. Most of this has been said time and time again on any TF forum, its just this time the author decided to save it as a pdf and for some reason people seem to be "wow'd" by this mysterious technology developed by Adobe.

Hardly. Many of his ideas are completely unique. I have never heard of exploding flamethrower fire or removing the sapper and adding a sabotage function for the knife. I don't know about you but I have observed countless arguments in which Chro states a radical opinion but then backs it up and convinces people. A lot of the suggestions he made in the paper I feel would fix a lot of balance and make some of the weaker classes more viable. Of course, there are also things I disagree with such as his bottle which is... very strange. I guess it is what you take away from it. I have disagreed with Chro's opinions before only to be convinced. He really loves this game and he does have the experience required to make such bold statements, or at least that is what I believe.
 

Cold

L1: Registered
May 23, 2009
31
5
1v1 against a soldier if you're godlike at reflecting he'll just shotgun you. (he has more hit points and most likely a medic shoved up his ass if he's pocket)

This is basically it. It just seems like a weapon heckling battle you can't win. If you reflect, he goes shotgun. If you go shotgun, he goes rocket, and etc.

Though if you really have played against cevo soldiers and come out on top it is impressive. I would like it if we could continue this subject. How do you beat them?
I have never played Pyro in a competitive format so my opinion may be theory.
 

TMP

Ancient Pyro Main
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Aug 11, 2008
947
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This is basically it. It just seems like a weapon heckling battle you can't win. If you reflect, he goes shotgun. If you go shotgun, he goes rocket, and etc.

Though if you really have played against cevo soldiers and come out on top it is impressive. I would like it if we could continue this subject. How do you beat them?
I have never played Pyro in a competitive format so my opinion may be theory.

Going to go ahead and say I prefer flare over shotgun, but anyways...

Range plays a huge role in the weapon heckling department: If he shotguns at a long distance it really doesn't concern me and if he shotguns shortrange it doesn't really concern me all too much.

I think only once have I faced off against a potential (Probably not, but they were leagues better than the team I was on!) CEVO-P team with pyro, and, not going to lie, generally was slaughtered by the multiple people and coordination they had, compared to ours. I think in 5 rounds I got 3 kills and nearly led the team in points (Hehe, we got slaughtered). In the one instance I managed to get a soldier off alone or where he wasn't surrounded by scouts shooting me or something, I reflectkilled him. I believe it was cc//vengengance or something like that, don't quote me though. His name was just like that. Anyways, I have played against players entering into the amateur division of CEVO this year and have annoyed and killed them to a good degree.

Anyways, playing pyro for league play... is interesting. His playstyle is almost a mashup of all the other classes into an ambush package. When playing him tactfully, you cannot expect to kill, but you need to keep in mind the general damage you do. Since the DoT of fire can do a fair amount of damage, it's a good idea to have rough estimates on how much your enemy has in his HP resevoir. Generally, a pyro can count on being able to chip off about 135HP off an enemy minus the medic heals if he can hit with flare decently (2 flares and fire+DoT).

The mindset of a pyro has to be different to take on enemies. It's very hard to have an unpredictable firing pattern as soldier or demoman, so reflecting their shots is generally easy. Reflecting is a prime ability, but it does take away your ammo by a good bit. Only use it when it works, pretty much. It takes a rediculous amount of training and studying of the universal soldier timing, but it is completely worth it. Generally, fire works well with a reflect, but if the enemy is in the air, you will need flares to continue the fight.

If the enemy soldier heckles, it's all about distance: From a far distance, it's not concernable, and it does minimal damage. From a close distance, you still have fire, and it works wonders. Middle range is the only issue, as then he can do heavy damage. It all comes down to damage, but you either go for the kill or you retreat. In a case where you cannot retreat completely from the battle, flare bombardment can help, but will probably not be very beneficial.

Scouts are deadly. Nothing else to mention there.

Demomen come down to not running into traps.

Perhaps the most important rule of pyroing on that high level, is to reflect, but not attempt to reflect everything. Soldiers and demomen fire faster than the airblast. Generally, a better tactic is to reflect every other projectile. It works much better, and you generally can outkill your enemy unless he's overhealed, in which case you're probably not going to have a direct encounter anyways unless you're an idiot or he catches you off guard.

I would say if you try to pyro for a league, prepare to invest plenty of time into it. The pyro is INCREDIBLY versitile, but it is entirely enemy-based versitility. Since you do not have direct control over it, it requires even more practice to recognise when you have the potential for control. That's probably why the pyro isn't played as much in the end. The amount of time and effort pyroing takes generally could be spent for a class that better uses his situations, like the soldier or demoman, but that barely-touched class (at least in comp) isn't really useless. You just have to be a damn good pyro.

If it's crazy and tangentfilled, I'm sorry. I'll sum it up.

To play pyro competitively:
1. Be obsessive with HP values and DoT
2. Play the ambush card as much as you can
3. Reflect projectiles that need to be reflected, and nothing more.
4. Be prepared to have to invest more time than any other class
5. Watch out for scouts
6. Play smart and play perfectly, or else you'll probably die
7. Don't play with killing in mind, more along helping your teammates
8. Remember you do have a flamethrower that does good damage up close
9. (If you use flare) Get accurate with the flare gun
10. Have fun, and don't be discouraged. If you don't like the class, play Soldier.
11. (VITAL RULE I FORGOT IT!) Don't run into a losing fight and expect to win. You can expect to delay them, but never to win.

I'll write a better mindset and general playstyle thing, but generally, to reiterate the whole 1v1 death thing, If you get the first reflect, you do 200 damage before he does. If he uses shotgun, it's all about where you position yourself in relation to him and consequently what weapon you use. It's very situational and never exact, which is one of the things of playing pyro.

Oh wow I went overkill on that, sorry! :p

If you want to ever go through the mindset, I tend to be more cohesive in game, so go ahead and add me as a friend in steam (Or simply join a game of mine) and I'll see if I can explain some then.
 
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