He was talking about the FAN jump.
And Magical Potato, I'm not sure you've ever attempted to play pyro in 6v6. It's only use is to take the piss out of an inferior team by w+m1 I mean AMBUSHING their medic
18 page paper on TF2
- Thread starter Mar
- Start date
He was talking about the FAN jump.
And Magical Potato, I'm not sure you've ever attempted to play pyro in 6v6. It's only use is to take the piss out of an inferior team by w+m1 I mean AMBUSHING their medic
He was actually talking about regular double jumping in combat, not FaN jumping.
JosephOhSnap
L1: Registered
- Jan 6, 2009
- 36
- 2
For fucks sake, why cant competetive players just stop thinking that they are superiour human beings then casual players. And for that matter, Why don't casual players just ignore them. I didn't read this whole thread, i just skimmed through it. what i saw was a bunch of arguing over an article written by an obvious comp player. Mar, please just post that stuff on gotfrag to avoid arguments, and please tf2maps.net, take it for what it is: A comp player thinking that valve should appeal to the minority of tf2 players, and some good information about gameplay mechanics in comp play.
To summerise my rant:
Mar, this is not the right place to discuss comp play, and if you didn't already know that, or you didn't notice that this article had a comp player bias, then you sir are a fucking idiot.
Entire tf2maps.net community, stop overreacting to the idiots of comp play. Please ignore them so we don't get into fights.
That is all
/thread kill
To summerise my rant:
Mar, this is not the right place to discuss comp play, and if you didn't already know that, or you didn't notice that this article had a comp player bias, then you sir are a fucking idiot.
Entire tf2maps.net community, stop overreacting to the idiots of comp play. Please ignore them so we don't get into fights.
That is all
/thread kill
- Aug 11, 2008
- 947
- 560
posting from gameday.
I have, it's hard, but you don't know how a pyro plays in a 6v6 and does well. he ambushes, but no W+m1. he acts mostly on nullification.
if i find a demo i'll post it. sorry for no caps.
TracerDX
L3: Member
- Jun 9, 2009
- 127
- 26
Simply put, a lot of comp players are creatures of habbit. They like their 2 Sol, 2 Scout, 1 Dem, 1 Med setup and consider switching 1 scout out for a "special case" class a tactical decision. I use this example because most "serious" comp teams are in 6v6 leagues. And the most effective setup is that.
I skimmed it, and didn't really care to read every word of all 18 pages. This over-analytical approach to the game is what drives these players. They have something figured out, that works, and all it is is a matter of "skill" at that point, at least, that's what they think and hold over us "pubstars". Which is why you hardly see a comp player "wasting their time" in the sheer chaos of a pub game.
On mapping, the fact will always remain that any system involving human interaction (and thus, tied to a complex system) will always be a complex system, and therefore, unpredictable.
Aside from the basic balancing and aesthetic appeal, a map either turns out to be fun, or not, with very little anyone can "research" to directly effect that outcome.
And for reference, maps that have been catered to these kinds of "variables", or more specifically, designed for competitive use, have all failed to be popular. (See junction, freight). Not by lack of effort in design or quality in the map itself, it just fails somehow to be "fun". Probably because the mapper wasn't thinking about how a gaggle of uncoordinated noobs could succeed/fail, but how an organized "pro" team would do it.
I skimmed it, and didn't really care to read every word of all 18 pages. This over-analytical approach to the game is what drives these players. They have something figured out, that works, and all it is is a matter of "skill" at that point, at least, that's what they think and hold over us "pubstars". Which is why you hardly see a comp player "wasting their time" in the sheer chaos of a pub game.
On mapping, the fact will always remain that any system involving human interaction (and thus, tied to a complex system) will always be a complex system, and therefore, unpredictable.
Aside from the basic balancing and aesthetic appeal, a map either turns out to be fun, or not, with very little anyone can "research" to directly effect that outcome.
And for reference, maps that have been catered to these kinds of "variables", or more specifically, designed for competitive use, have all failed to be popular. (See junction, freight). Not by lack of effort in design or quality in the map itself, it just fails somehow to be "fun". Probably because the mapper wasn't thinking about how a gaggle of uncoordinated noobs could succeed/fail, but how an organized "pro" team would do it.
- Aug 11, 2008
- 947
- 560
posting from gameday.
I have, it's hard, but you don't know how a pyro plays in a 6v6 and does well. he ambushes, but no W+m1. he acts mostly on nullification.
if i find a demo i'll post it. sorry for no caps.
Junction was bad for comp play too. Any team I've played with hated it. it's all about who can spam better
- Feb 12, 2009
- 607
- 63
I find this funny since I'm not actually discussing stuff in this thread. I simply posted this 18 page paper since the man took the time to write it.
On another note if Valve did tailor the game to comp players, pub players still wouldn't care seeing as they don't care that much right now.
EDIT: On another note stop trolling the tags
PS. The problem with the pyro is that other then airblasting a scout can do anything he can even better then the pyro can.
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- Aug 11, 2008
- 947
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- Apr 19, 2009
- 4,460
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Someone has waaayyy to much time on there hands.
- Feb 12, 2009
- 607
- 63
fixed.
- Apr 19, 2009
- 4,460
- 1,722
Rikka
L5: Dapper Member
- Feb 10, 2009
- 208
- 388
To be fair, when trying to balance a game you should cater to the hardcore first. If you have it balanced with them, it will pass down to more casual players. They may be pompous asses, but they're the center of your community and the ones dedicating the most time to the game. You just have to be careful how much you listen to them, obviously. They tend to react to any change badly.
It's the same with the mapping community. You guys put plenty of work into the game, and if they were to make changes to anything involving mapping they should pay attention to you over, say, the guys making orange maps.
It's the same with the mapping community. You guys put plenty of work into the game, and if they were to make changes to anything involving mapping they should pay attention to you over, say, the guys making orange maps.
Rasputin
L3: Member
- Sep 20, 2008
- 107
- 20
The Team Fortress 2 hardcore players are stuck within their set formula and refuse to deviate from that formula unless some blue moon arises and maybe they should bring out a spy for a bit. Balance cannot be made when you stick with the guys who use half of the optimal player count and less than half of the classes. The regular and competitive playbooks are so radically different, balance must be made with both involved.
It's poor logic to compare the dedicated mappers many of such reside on this forum to the crowd of people who decide to publish their first orange map, take no initiative to garner feedback or even get it played, and ditch mapping entirely. Most of their maps do not get played and for good reason. Of course any changes involved in mapping should be garnered towards us.
This is a forum. 'Subjects' get discussed. You are reading in the "Team Fortress 2 Talk" Sub forum. I believe this is Team Fortress 2 related. If you don't discuss the more contraversial topics openly then people will only garner misconcepted feelings for each other. Trying to be an intercessor doesn't make you smart and is a job for the moderators. This forum has an excellent tendancy to keep itself under control compared to most. Dare i say most of the people here are intelligent mature individuals.
P.S. I'm pretty sure i havn't seen anyone over react to anything. Moderator has only stepped in to clean up the childish tags.
BagOfChips
L5: Dapper Member
- Feb 7, 2009
- 227
- 17
How anyone from this forum can claim that TF2F is a cess pool of idiocy after reading this thread is beyond me.
I play casually(and rarely) and am not involved in anything competitive with TF2.
I love you guys claiming comp players are obnoxious ass holes. Are you trying to tell me pubs aren't? I can hop in a random pub server, and there's an 80% chance someone is mic spamming music.
If I go on a more competitively geared server(Gpit / push cp only, 6v6 or even 8v8) I rarely run into obnoxious people. Comp players also seem to talk and chat a lot less, focusing on the game.
A lot of what chro says is true / correct. If you want to stick your fingers in your ears and ignore him while you continue to play 24 / 7 32 man dustbowl servers, basing balance off of them, fine. Just don't try to talk TF2 when you obviously don't know how it's played. (mr. scouts-should-double-jump-in-combat and mr. run-a-pyro-to-counter-stunman)
@ political gamer: So since you map, you don't have too much time on his hands, but he spends half an hour typing 18 pages and instantly he has too much time on his hands??
The reason the class set up is pretty much set in stone is because the composition is THE best. Running pyros, engineers, heavies, and spies does not work universally due to flaws.
Heavy is slow and medic dependent.
Sniper lacks close range, isn't very versatile, and you have to be god like to make a difference.
Engineer takes forever to set up, is easily countered, and all he does is help you not lose. You can't build on the front line, so you're forced to build behind your front line.
Spy is useful for a death or two, then people get too paranoid and you become useless in a small setting.
Pyro is destroyed too easily by scouts and soldiers. He's used once in a while on very flanky maps apparently, and he's also useful for a last resort defense.
They need fixes and I'm sure comp players would use them if they were made viable. (Jarate really helps snipers now)
I play casually(and rarely) and am not involved in anything competitive with TF2.
I love you guys claiming comp players are obnoxious ass holes. Are you trying to tell me pubs aren't? I can hop in a random pub server, and there's an 80% chance someone is mic spamming music.
If I go on a more competitively geared server(Gpit / push cp only, 6v6 or even 8v8) I rarely run into obnoxious people. Comp players also seem to talk and chat a lot less, focusing on the game.
A lot of what chro says is true / correct. If you want to stick your fingers in your ears and ignore him while you continue to play 24 / 7 32 man dustbowl servers, basing balance off of them, fine. Just don't try to talk TF2 when you obviously don't know how it's played. (mr. scouts-should-double-jump-in-combat and mr. run-a-pyro-to-counter-stunman)
@ political gamer: So since you map, you don't have too much time on his hands, but he spends half an hour typing 18 pages and instantly he has too much time on his hands??
The reason the class set up is pretty much set in stone is because the composition is THE best. Running pyros, engineers, heavies, and spies does not work universally due to flaws.
Heavy is slow and medic dependent.
Sniper lacks close range, isn't very versatile, and you have to be god like to make a difference.
Engineer takes forever to set up, is easily countered, and all he does is help you not lose. You can't build on the front line, so you're forced to build behind your front line.
Spy is useful for a death or two, then people get too paranoid and you become useless in a small setting.
Pyro is destroyed too easily by scouts and soldiers. He's used once in a while on very flanky maps apparently, and he's also useful for a last resort defense.
They need fixes and I'm sure comp players would use them if they were made viable. (Jarate really helps snipers now)
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