18 page paper on TF2

Discussion in 'Team Fortress 2 Talk' started by Mar, Jul 7, 2009.

  1. Mar

    Mar Banned

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    I'm an ex-member of the TF2F community, and one of the frequent and smartest posters on the forum, Chro, wrote an 18 page paper of the gameplay mechanics of TF2.

    http://www.teamfortress2fort.com/upload/tf2.pdf

    Orginal thread this was posted in.

    It's a great read, I hope alot of people will take a look. Knowing how TF2 works is the first step to making a nice map from a gameplay stand point.

    Enjoy.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2009
  2. Dr. Spud

    aa Dr. Spud Grossly Incandescent

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    I don't understand this guy. In the introduction he's like, "fah, most people will probably stop reading here and call me loser, elitist, etc." Except that by saying that, he's already being elitist. And THEN later on before the Maps section he drops the "Valve should stop catering to casual players and focus on competitive play" bomb. It's like, okay I get it, you think you're pro.

    But anyways, the content of the paper is what's important I guess. But just read the first paragraph out of the Maps section: really? CTF "doesn't work," one reason being engine restrains? This kid didn't really think this through.

    He also claims the pyro has "little-to-no specific class skills or techniques" needed to play it.

    This is like a steampowered post formatted to 18 pages: I'm not buying it.

    edit: OMG read the conclusion, it's hilarious. He gets defensive about league-play, hints at his ability to be a game developer with no training, and suggests he's superior to the "masses" on the steam forums. Wow.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2009
  3. owly-oop

    aa owly-oop im birb

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    generic competitive elitist who thinks he is better than everyone else and the game should be made around his likings
     
  4. Caliostro

    Caliostro L6: Sharp Member

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    Didn't bother reading all. From the intro and conclusion alone I can tell he's both pretentious and knows a lot less than he thinks he does.


    Can't be arsed reading 18 pages of, as Spud accurately puts it, formatted steam forums posts.

    Edit: inb4 the author comes back in a "LEAVE MY ESSAY ALONE!" / "UR ALL NOOBS" rage.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2009
  5. Mar

    Mar Banned

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  6. TMP

    aa TMP Abuser of Site Rules

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    I read it a while back, if I remember correctly.

    Actually, no I didn't read this. I decided to pick this up and read it.


    He's right about plenty of things, some things do have a real anti-genericism and mean play, but it's not completely bad. His points on the pyro class are from a viewpoint of NEVER PLAYING THE CLASS COMPETITIVELY, so I can give him points there for not being pure competitive.

    Funny thing is the article is still too dated. Many of his suggestions have been implemented. Although I don't still understand the whole sandman debate in comp (COME ON, Run a good pyro protecting the ubers and medics and stuff and it's 100% useless! Idiots.), I do understand plenty of it, and I am so glad he has mature views on most of the weapons.

    Of course, some of his suggestions sound CRAZY, like higher grenade damage. Come on, 2-3 nades kill anything! And his engi plans would not work out. Imagine the effects in a pub with that. Oh, and his pyro flamethrower idea was just foolish. Flames exploding and doing damage to a guy in a flame-retardant suit?

    Otherwise, it's actually very managable. I've played with Chro before, and he just ran around with ambassador out shooting people.

    Oh, and now I remember why I don't visit the TF2F forums. They are JUST LIKE THE DAMNED STEAM FORUMS. Smug little bastards that feel like the game should be catered in strange ways to their fantasies. But enough talk about that.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2009
  7. Mar

    Mar Banned

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    With only 1 difference. TF2F knows what there talking about.

    Just look at the steam forum thread on this paper then look at the TF2F one that I've already provided and see the difference.

    http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10346081#post10346081
     
  8. Dr. Spud

    aa Dr. Spud Grossly Incandescent

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    If that paper is an achievement for TF2F, then they do not know what they're talking about.:O

    On the steampowered thread I see a moderator making normal comments, and on the TF2F thread, I see people going "WWWAAAARRRRGGHHAARBLLL That moderator is SO STUPID I want to kill him!!1!!!eleven!!"

    Never been to TF2F before, and I'm not going back.:facepalm
     
  9. TMP

    aa TMP Abuser of Site Rules

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    To be honest, both are cesspools of their own feces. It's just the content of the feces that differs. From an outsider looking in, the quality of the messages posted on both Steam Forums and TF2F forums are both about the same shitty quality that displays an inhibited knowledge of the complex flow outside of their worlds.


    For instance, do competitive teams realise a good pyro can nullify the effects of sandman? It's not a hard projectile to reflect. But by most leagues banning sandman, it reduced a potential for spreading the class balance out and having a pyro run staple for nullification purposes. Who knows?

    Of course, Steam Forums, after reading some, don't notice it is written from primarially a competitive point of view. Calling CTF dead total is a downright piece of bullshit, but saying CTF is dead in competitive leagues is more accurate.

    Meh, if I am rambling incoherently, I'm tired and I'm getting to sleep after this message. Those are my 2 cents.


    tl;dr. TF2F and Steam Forums are basically both cesspools of filth convinced they are right. Just like everyone else. It just comes down to whoever is yelling the loudest I guess. Oh, and I'm really tired. If you want to pursue this, send me a PM. I'll be glad to pick it up there.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2009
  10. Psy

    aa Psy The Imp Queen

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    From the times I lurked the TF2F forums, I recall thinking that Chro was a complete tosser who thought he knew better than everybody else.
     
  11. Randdalf

    aa Randdalf

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    There is an unjustified hate for league play though.
     
  12. Dr. Spud

    aa Dr. Spud Grossly Incandescent

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    It's not unjustified - it's because lots of league players are fucking obnoxious.
     
  13. Void

    aa Void Local Man Unable To Map, Sources Say

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    Comp players such as Mar and this Chro guy tend to think they are totally awesome and believe anyone else's opinion to be lies and slander.
     
  14. PanFrie

    PanFrie L1: Registered

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    Putting Mar and Chro in the same category is like saying an ant is as big as an elephant... (no offense mar)
     
  15. uma plata

    uma plata L6: Sharp Member

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    meh, it's just 18 pages of opinion. Some of them I agree with, others not so much

    You could basically get the same value from reading any discussion thread about TF2
     
  16. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    So the discussion starts like this:

    To presume to know what Valve has actually intended at any specific point is just.. egotistical. It's like he's taken a bunch of bad experiences and made a huge rant on them, and then made some points on his good experiences to justify it as a "discussion".

    He discusses class identity and class ability without discussing the environment, nullifying his point in the broader picture of the "game" mechanics. Game mechanics functions as just that, the whole game. Everything effects everything in play, and he appears to have catogarised his essay in the same way he discusses how Valve's catogorisation of class role was unjust and naive. Which i found rather amusingly ironic.

    Valve and gameplay testing.

    He seems to have completely missed the point of Valves take on open beta testing. The quickest way to get a reliable feedback over the function of any change braught about by the inclusion of new oppotunies (weapons/tools) is by having a larger test sample. Items are tested minorly, released, and subsequently updated with any required balancing to get the weapon to scratch before it might have even been released in the past. Lets not forget that TF2 is not the only game Valve works on.

    He's obviously never played scout much/properly. I'm not even a good scout but being able to double jump to avoid being shot has kept me alive.. more than i care to hesitate a guess. The extra jump is invaluble, especially against good soldiers.

    Again, i'm not sure whether he's played soldier at all but i utilise the soldier's melee just as much as i would as engineer who has it out most of the time. Other than sniper, the soldiers melee is an incredibly valuble weapon. It doesn't take much to run out of ammo for soldier when the heat is pressed.

    All of this "discussion" seems completely based on a limited experience of unfortunate circumstances. He was right about the Heavy but the heavy has always been like this. One can only hope that other class unlocks will support the Heavy's existance.

    He's expecting a perfect system in a game that's technically still under development.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2009
  17. PanFrie

    PanFrie L1: Registered

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    if you've ever watched any high level competitive scouts play, they very rarely double jump in combat, and they are one of the biggest influences in the game.


    Now, don't get me wrong, I always use my double jump in (and out of) combat, and I disagree with not using it. I'm just pointing out how the best scouts do it, and still manage to kill all the important enemies.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2009
  18. Mar

    Mar Banned

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    None Taken. Just look at how much we play this game. (Idling doesn't count)

    Also, to the rest of you guys. You seem to be more close minded then I am. Instead of engaging in reasonable, logical debate you continually dismiss me becuase of my views and becuase I play this game competitively for fun.

    To quote Cornel West "Just becuase two people's opinion are different doesn't mean they should disrespect each other."
     
  19. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    We're not talking about competative play. You get different circumstances arise in competative play as apposed to public play. So telling people a particular ability is redundant based on whether competitive players utilise it is flawed. Besides the fact that the majority player base isn't 'competitive'.

    I've seen very skilled scouts dominate whole teams simply by flying about like a blind bat. Whilst other scout just running around get bounce-shotted. If you're going to jump once to avoid a shot you might as well double-jump to avoid the next. Jumping makes your movement more predictable, double jumping reduces that predictability.
     
  20. PanFrie

    PanFrie L1: Registered

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    Which is exactly why I still think jumping in combat is a good thing

    also, fuck this site timing out every time i click a button... makes posting shit nearly impossible