[WIP] cp_cliffside

[NumbersAndNoise]

Hmm. I think you should put an invisible brush just below the top of the cliffs so people can't see behind them (it doesn't look realistic if the world just stops after the cliff and carries on into endless space.) But then again, it's up to you.
Two weeks. That's a fairly short time to make this map, and the map's good. Learned pretty quickly didn't you? What site/tutorial (if one) did you use?
I'm pretty sure this map's going to turn out really good. Can't wait for the result.

Thanks. I learned a lot of stuff from here, of course, and the valve dev wiki. Editlife was really helpful for the basics, and I occasionally found some decent stuff on FPSbanana, though cutting through all the garbage to get to it was a bit of a chore. Type 3 Studios had some really great stuff, too, but it seems to have disappeared into thin air. The other thing that was a big help was adding some other mappers in Steam so I'd have someone to IM with quick questions.

 

[NumbersAndNoise]

I have returned, and I come bearing the next version: Test 4. It should be the last test version before I go beta.

Screenshots!

I made my spawn room a little prettier by connecting it to an inaccessible room that in turn suggest that the rest of the base is behind it.

I added a big tower on the front of the RED base, which went a long way towards getting rid of dead space.

View from the roof.

Added some more detail to the warehouse. (You can't see it, but there's also a nobuild RED here to prevent spawncamping).

You can never have too many signs.

Sky view.

I initially worried this sign would give people the impression that the CP was inside the tower there, but unless you r-jump there you need to go to the top of the tower to get there anyway, so that sends you to the CP anyway.

I did some more interior detail as well.

Feel free to run around and tell me what you think.

 

[Aaronmiles2]

Anyone had a look at it yet?
If they haven't, I'm going to. RIGHT NOW.

 

[Snipergen]

From a gameplay point of view I think it's very open and very big and weird paths towards the control points that are not always as logical. If players have to get to a higher place, use stairs or ramps. Not gimmicky grain tubes or whatever it's called to let them walk over, it's confusing and just wrong
The details are not bad but they don't feel solid and right yet, and you have a weird yellow lighting in the indoor area.
Also your hud is maybe on the edge of getting in the way of your view.

 

[NumbersAndNoise]

From a gameplay point of view I think it's very open and very big and weird paths towards the control points that are not always as logical. If players have to get to a higher place, use stairs or ramps. Not gimmicky grain tubes or whatever it's called to let them walk over, it's confusing and just wrong
The details are not bad but they don't feel solid and right yet, and you have a weird yellow lighting in the indoor area.
Also your hud is maybe on the edge of getting in the way of your view.

Thanks for the feedback. I felt like stairs connecting the tower to the warehouse looked really awkward without a structure under them, and I didn't want to block off that area (though maybe I should to force people to go around? Might make it a bit less open.) so the grain tube seemed like a good choice. Any better idea of what would meet this goal?

I will definitely change the lighting. Can you be a little more specific about the details?

I think the HUD does get in the way a little more than I'd like, but I can't think of a better way to arrange it. I would think that having the four points in a square would be a bit counter-intuitive, since having A and B on the same level indicates that they both have to be captured before C unlocks.

 

[grazr]

I think he means that the yellow lights arn't appropriate given the light props you are using. The yellow lights are used in the officialy maps because they are from oil lanterns. Your lights are bulbs. They should be more white, then.

Edit: Also, try adding a small sprite to your lamps, to give the impression of intense brightness from your bulbs. You may have to lower the scale of the sprite below 1 though, 0.4 etc, etc. Find out what works best for yourself

 

[Dox]

looking at the third pic in your test 4 post, that "RED" texture doesnt seem to fit, usually everything that says will have something else, like "RED Demolitions inc" or "RED Valley farming"... not just "RED"

 

[Aaronmiles2]

The rock is floating; bring it down a little.

The 3D skybox overlaps the real world, and it doesn't look real (it keeps sliding out of position, if you know what I mean...)

The sacks in the red spawn float off the ground. Bring them down a little.

The table, desk and other stuff in the corner are floating off the ground. Bring them down a little.

The metal panel's floating off the floor, (you guessed it...) Bring it down a little.

You'll never guess what. The rock floats off the floor. Will you be able to decide what to do next?
...
Bring it down a little.

You guessed it. The building in the skybox is floating off the floor. (Ready for it....) Bring it down a little.

Finally, something else. If you get a Medic to heal you, and use 3 stickes to blast yourself into the shown corner (where I am) you can slide behind the cliff and completely go behind it. I'll tell you what I think you need to do in a moment.

See the texture error? That's what happens when you sticky-jump on to the extremely tall building. Again, I'll tell you what I think you need to do in a moment.

This caged area with the sacks.. Are you meant to get in it? Because you can.

TEXTURE ERROR OMG!!!!!!! All you need to do is fix it, lol.

OK, this is what I think you should do. Instead of blocking off the cliffs, so people can't go behind them, what I think you should do is make a brush that covers the whole map level with the top of the cliffs, with the texture tools/toolsplayerclip. That way you can't get behind the cliffs AT ALL. Nor can you get on top of the building with the dodgy texture.
By the way, the texture problem only occurs when you look in a certain direction on the building.
Other than that, GREAT STUFF!

 

[NumbersAndNoise]

Cliff problems, texture problems, and a whole lot of floating stuff. (Didn't want to quote your entire post and make everyone scroll through the images again.)

Wow. I can't believe I made that same mistake so many times. Thanks for finding all that. The wonkiness with the skybox is something that I'll probably be stuck just figuring out through trial and error, I suppose.

You are not in fact supposed to get up to where those sacks are.

I think he means that the yellow lights arn't appropriate given the light props you are using. The yellow lights are used in the officialy maps because they are from oil lanterns. Your lights are bulbs. They should be more white, then.

Edit: Also, try adding a small sprite to your lamps, to give the impression of intense brightness from your bulbs. You may have to lower the scale of the sprite below 1 though, 0.4 etc, etc. Find out what works best for yourself

Sorry I wasn't clear, that second part was aimed at his comment about the details, separate from the lights. I've already gone in and fixed those, but I didn't know the think bot the sprites. Thanks.


Directed at the various comments about openness earlier, I think I'm going to have the warehouse extend a bit on the side, like a little part of the building coming out with a big door for loading/unloading, though you can't get in that way. that should close up the area in front of the A building a little. Beyond that, which areas need to be less open?

 

[NumbersAndNoise]

cp_cliffside_a5 is here!

I changed the name to a from test to match the standards for gameday, you haven't missed a version or anything. Most of the changes are bugfixes like were discussed here, but I added some more stuff to the map too.

I added a lot more stuff to make the area in front of the A building less of a wide open space, including an addition to the west side of the warehouse that is meant to be a loading area for packages too large to go in the front doors.

I replaced the dreaded grain tubes with a divider that also regulates movement a bit better around the base of the B tower.

I submitted the map for gameday, so we'll finally get to see how it really plays.

 

[grazr]

Starting to take on some shape, looking a lot better. Try adding some more stuff to your roofs to break long lines of sight would be my only major suggestion. It is good for mappers to lead their players through the map, it gives flow.

 

[NumbersAndNoise]

After the gameday build, I learned something important about the phrase "Oh my god, it's huge." It's great when your girlfriend says it, but not when your playtesters say it. So I scaled the whole thing down to .75 and added a lot more stuff to turn large open areas into smaller, covered ones. I also added a lot more signage on the RED side, and put in a forward spawn for BLU. Check it out:http://forums.tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=515


Edit because I didn't want to bump this thread:
cp_cliffside has been put on indefinite hiatus while I decide whether it can be made to work. The most likely outcome is that some of it will become parts of another map.

 

[Uriak]

Best thing to do when you have doubts about the size of your map : play it as an heavy, suicide yourself several times to have a feeling of the respawn + travel times and ask yourself : is this enjoyable or not ?

I'll tell flubber if he checked this map for a future test session.

 

[Nineaxis]

But using a heavy could lead to making your map too small. The best thing to do is run through your map as every class. See if scouts can quickly get to capture points, check if spies can cloak and decloak in good locations, check if snipers have an extreme advantage, if it takes forever for heavies to get anywhere, check if engies can camp easily- it's all about balance.

 

[Uriak]

I meant checking for hugeness (which actually happens a lot). Modifying a map is always a chore but cutting and deleting parts of your job because you need to shorten distances is the most painful