[WIP] Contest map: cp_bloodstained

YM

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Dec 5, 2007
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cp_bloodstained_b2_a It now works ;)

Changes for _b2_a - 15/03/08:-

-Reduced filesize again ( _b1 - 91mb uncompressed. _b2 - ~40mb. _b2_a - 30mb) - from the fast download site its only 9mb now
-Redesigned one area
-Tweaked water
-Replaced a few textures
-Removed nodraw brush blocking blu spawn in round 2
-Lit an area that wasn't before
-Minor tweaks all over the place
-Added areaportals to the third stage
 
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MangyCarface

Mapper
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Feb 26, 2008
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Finally got to play this with a full server... amazingly fun and the areas that are finished look awesome. Definitely on par with Valve stuff. The custom decals are great, too. Blue got into Red spawn during the first round one time, is this intentional? Red was getting destroyed so I guess we deserved it though.
 

YM

LVL100 YM
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Dec 5, 2007
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Blue got into Red spawn during the first round one time, is this intentional? Red was getting destroyed so I guess we deserved it though.

Did they actually get inside the building?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the red spawn is the red building, the area around that building is not part of their spawn
 

Vilepickle

Banned
Oct 25, 2007
372
199
Did they actually get inside the building?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the red spawn is the red building, the area around that building is not part of their spawn

If you have to say it again and again, you may want to rectify it by making it clearer in the map. The "fence" with spawn visualizers before the round says pretty clearly that this area is part of the spawn right now.

That said, I guess I can comment on this map now.

CP1a-b: CP1 is fine for a first stage. CP1b however, is very "spammy". There needs to be more space or another route that isn't a full route but allows some extra damage to be inflicted on the defense turtling in the corner. The side tunnel to the CP is easily locked down and it's hard to kill a demo or whatever on the other side.

CP2a-b: I like 2a, but 2b makes me want to gouge my eyes out. Each doorway can have a sentry in front of it and you can't move THROUGH the doorway to get the engineer humping the gun off of it. This combined with the defense freely able to come through the small doors and disrupt your sentry clearing plan makes it painful. Have a higher entrance or something so players can come in from above and not get lamb-basted by a gun EVERY time.

CP3a-b: 3a seems fine again, but 3b seems to suffer from... something. I like the higher entrance, but the direct LOS from spawns to enemies makes clearing some players out of here mostly useless. combined with the longer cap time, it just leads to pain.

General Timers: These seem excessively long. Why does the CP1 set start with like 10 minutes? Dustbowl has 4.5 minutes to start with and adds 4.5 with each point. It would seem like, if properly done, this could use the same timers (maybe add 30-60 sec?). If it's taking 10 minutes to cap, then it's probably not balanced right yet.

Overall I like it. Texture some of those hallways and stuff. And then I won't have Orange-x nightmares while thinking about good maps.
 

Koei

L4: Comfortable Member
Feb 23, 2008
186
4
If you have to say it again and again, you may want to rectify it by making it clearer in the map. The "fence" with spawn visualizers before the round says pretty clearly that this area is part of the spawn right now.

That said, I guess I can comment on this map now.

CP1a-b: CP1 is fine for a first stage. CP1b however, is very "spammy". There needs to be more space or another route that isn't a full route but allows some extra damage to be inflicted on the defense turtling in the corner. The side tunnel to the CP is easily locked down and it's hard to kill a demo or whatever on the other side.

CP2a-b: I like 2a, but 2b makes me want to gouge my eyes out. Each doorway can have a sentry in front of it and you can't move THROUGH the doorway to get the engineer humping the gun off of it. This combined with the defense freely able to come through the small doors and disrupt your sentry clearing plan makes it painful. Have a higher entrance or something so players can come in from above and not get lamb-basted by a gun EVERY time.

CP3a-b: 3a seems fine again, but 3b seems to suffer from... something. I like the higher entrance, but the direct LOS from spawns to enemies makes clearing some players out of here mostly useless. combined with the longer cap time, it just leads to pain.

General Timers: These seem excessively long. Why does the CP1 set start with like 10 minutes? Dustbowl has 4.5 minutes to start with and adds 4.5 with each point. It would seem like, if properly done, this could use the same timers (maybe add 30-60 sec?). If it's taking 10 minutes to cap, then it's probably not balanced right yet.

Overall I like it. Texture some of those hallways and stuff. And then I won't have Orange-x nightmares while thinking about good maps.

CP1B: disagree. Major disadvantage for the defenders right there. There are almost no decent sentry positions. 1-2 ubers take that cap in seconds. I do agree it's spammy. But it's not hard to cap.

CP3B is hard to cap. Also the defending snipers seem to been sitting in their spawn? Or am I wrong about that? I don't really know the exact position of the spawnpoints. Maybe we should have let you guys win CP2 ;).

In response to the general timers: it needs some tweaking. But don't forget the timelimits on dustbowl end up at 10-20 minutes sometimes! Esp. stage 3.
 

YM

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Dec 5, 2007
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The timers on dustbowl stack up, so if you cap stages 1 and 2 ultra lightning fast you have rediculous amounts of time for the last stage, I decided not to do this but I'm willing to experiment with it.

It seems the final points in each round need tweaking the most, I'm looking into ways off adding alternate routes, cover and spaces for each, any specific suggestions are welcome of course.

I've got a tricky job on this because I'm getting a lot of people saying is just perfect, and a lot of people saying its got some major improvements needed
 

Scotland Tom

L6: Sharp Member
Jan 19, 2008
332
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Not everybody is always right. Some people can play a map, have fun, and say it's perfect while overlooking many drawbacks. Some people can have loads of criticism that may be based on the fact that they've played with a poor team or simply aren't the best players in the world. The opinions you can really trust are the ones that come from people with a reputation you can respect. Vilepickle has released some pretty solid maps in the past, so what he says may have more value than a new player on your test server.
 

Vilepickle

Banned
Oct 25, 2007
372
199
I thought about it some more today at school. What was really striking me on the offense side was that most routes are on the ground level, which leads to some pretty linear stuff. There is of course buildings that you can get on as soldiers and whatnot, but there's not really any true high-ground route except on 3B, which turns out to be stale-matey in the way it was implemented.

If you look at Dustbowl, they've got a high route on stage 1 into the B point, routes that go through an upper area on 2B, and an upper path on 3B. I think that might be contributing to the second points being really spammy/locked down.


I also realize some of this may sound like I'm preaching what I haven't practiced (ala Castle), but I made that map with a LOT less knowledge than I have now back in October. I think if I made that now, it would be a lot better. So I can at least help you make a good map :p

I had a hunch you were using set timers instead of additive. I didn't really pay attention to it though. Additive are harder to balance, but I think they are worth it in the end. They help the defense if they're doing good on one area and then get capped right at the end. That time deficit transfers to the next round and makes the offense more aware that they have less time/are more likely to lose unless they step it up. Static timers are ... meh. Very predictable and doesn't reward the defense if they did well on the last area.
 
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Shmitz

Old Hat
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Nov 12, 2007
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That bottom tunnel in the first stage becomes useless after the first point is capped. You might consider extending it as a sublevel or adding a second upper level to the building it comes out in. That would give the attacking team some additional options for the second point that would be something other than ground level.
 

Koei

L4: Comfortable Member
Feb 23, 2008
186
4
Not everybody is always right. Some people can play a map, have fun, and say it's perfect while overlooking many drawbacks. Some people can have loads of criticism that may be based on the fact that they've played with a poor team or simply aren't the best players in the world. The opinions you can really trust are the ones that come from people with a reputation you can respect. Vilepickle has released some pretty solid maps in the past, so what he says may have more value than a new player on your test server.
Hoho, "new" player isn't an argument. You have to look at experience.
And I was the top player on _all_ the maps we played. I'm nearing 22.000 kills on my homeserver with a KDR ratio of 3.33. I think I'm more than capable of spotting gameplay issues on maps.


What I would like to see on bloodstained:
- More high ground
- Some larger area's to fight in (think Dustbowl stage 2), so scouts got space to manouver. Most of the combat went on in fairly confined spaces/hallways or larger rooms that were 100% occupied by defense so you were still stuck in a confined space.

That bottom tunnel in the first stage becomes useless after the first point is capped. You might consider extending it as a sublevel or adding a second upper level to the building it comes out in. That would give the attacking team some additional options for the second point that would be something other than ground level.

Then he should give the defenders additional options to defend the 2nd cap, because at the moment it is quite easy to cap (lack of good sentry positions, now 1 ubered demo can take em all out).
 

phatal

L6: Sharp Member
Jan 8, 2008
259
21
I was glad to finally get to play this without the multitude of blue/red textures. Looks so much different.

I really liked the layout. However, the size is really small. I believe we had a 8vs8 and it was a tough fight to get the last cp's I can't imagine having more than 16 players playing this at once. I think enlarging it a bit would be good.

One nit picky thing I noticed... why is that large cargo container stuck inside the building? That looked really weird to me. :D
 

Scotland Tom

L6: Sharp Member
Jan 19, 2008
332
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@Koei, I wasn't using "new" in that sense. I was using "new" referring to someone whom Youme doesn't know as well. You have to pick and choose which input to listen to. That "new" player may be the greatest player in the world, but without a frame of reference it's safer to listen to the input you get from sources you know to be reliable and knowledgeable.

On the issue of travel routes to the second caps, it's always a good idea to have some kind of height difference somewhere. Different classes can make better (or worse) use of their abilities from higher vantage points. One of the keys to a great map is giving every class (or nearly every class) something to do no matter what stage of the map they are in. That requires some different height elements. The less varied the exits are to the cap points the easier they are to defend.
 
Dec 25, 2007
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YM

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Fist - whoa suspected that that might be a little bit of a problem but I thought it wouldnt, guess i'll have to add some more playerclips
second - well the original intention was to allow players up here, but actually I'm considering clipping it off
Third - originally this section of the building was much shorter, there was even room to jump, but then I saw the door coming through the roof. doh! so I raised the ceiling and didnt even think about the clipping thanks
Fourth - again I intended remomen and soldiers to be able to use this, I didn't expect engineers to be able to get up there aswell, I think I'll put a little nobuild on the top of those barrels (thats how you got up there right?)
Thanks :D I think the main thing I'm working on now is the illusion of size, to make the map look bigger whilst not actually changing the dimentions [much]
 

Scotland Tom

L6: Sharp Member
Jan 19, 2008
332
64
Obviously you don't want those engineers to get up there, but one thing I think is cool is the engineer's ability to build himself up to where he might not normally able to get to. If you don't want to incorporate the idea in this map it'd at least be good to consider for the future. It's a good way to reward a good engineer and his team - to give him spots like that to build up to. (Provided it's a challenge to get there.)
 
Dec 25, 2007
566
439
Fourth - again I intended remomen and soldiers to be able to use this, I didn't expect engineers to be able to get up there aswell, I think I'll put a little nobuild on the top of those barrels (thats how you got up there right?)
That's how I got up, yes.
 

Koei

L4: Comfortable Member
Feb 23, 2008
186
4
This is some feedback I got:
Stage 2 is a bit claustrophobic. Would like to see a bit more open space and not only small hallways leading up to 1 big room. And I kinda agree with that.
 

Cereal_Killer

L1: Registered
Feb 11, 2008
34
1
Having finally played it (on the Colt Server WOOH HOO!), i can finally pass judgement. Now im pretty much a n00b so you can disregard my oppinion but just in case other people agree i thought id vent. The gameplay is very much the opposite of how valve's maps act. While valve's maps feels very open and complex at the same time. You're map feels very cramped but simple to follow. Maybe this was your objective. It does feel very complicated on the 3rd stage but uncomfortably. One of the problems i found on the 3rd stage was snipers shooting from behind the visualizer (preventing spies, demos, and anyone they are able to run away from from killing them) I did find your map to be pretty Heavy Weapons Guy friendly. Idk if this was on purpose or not. I did like the fact that it was very spy friendly as well. Over all i did enjoy playing the map despite the fact that it got a little stale when people didn't work together (what can i say im a sore loser). This was probably due to the few choke points (bonus points for you) that only existed right on the point, which forced teams to really work together to either take or defend the point <=== loved that. Only thing i'd try to reiterate is the easy spawn camping that can occur. Thanks for your contribution to TF2 and keep up the good work.

Thanks,
Cereal Killer
 

YM

LVL100 YM
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Dec 5, 2007
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This shot - here - shows that I do listen to what you guys have to say (DJ, this is one of your suggestions) and yeah, I had mat_fullbright set to 2 ;)
 

Memento Mori

L2: Junior Member
Mar 25, 2008
61
11
On small games on Area2-Capture2 a demoman can stickybomb the defenders spawn, walling you in. On larger games the map felt very small.

Good map though.