Why not just ban reworked Valve maps?

[Delusibeta]

Here's an idea. Have a regular contest for a "labyrinth mash-up map". Perhaps control-point attack/defend so asymmetry isn't an issue.

Establish a framework of areas with specific doorways between them, a basic skybox, and allow newbie mappers to choose a room and build into it, with whatever brushwork or decoration will fit. When they're done, they upload a prefab vmf.

After a time limit and all rooms have content, populate the leak-sealing framework with the prefabs, release it, and make available a list of links to the individual prefabs (which authors themselves uploaded) so that anybody can see how individual rooms were made.

I approve of this idea.

You could also rip off TMX's Build A Stage Contest: basically, challenge everyone to make a first point and Blue's spawn of a A/D map and include specific exits out of the area. The next person makes the second point and Red's spawn and specific exits out of the area. Rinse and repeat untill we have a three stage A/D map.

 

[grazr]

For forum policy, I think "don't change Valve maps" is--whether as a rule or a comment--somewhat self-defeating. If the person is interested in mapping, it's basically coming across as: "Your first project has to be huge." If someone is interested in electronics, do you encourage their interest by saying: "Don't use a kit for anything, buy all wires, transistors, resistors, etc. and build a crystal radio from scratch"?

Actually my advice has always been don't make full on map at all, and certainly don't release your first one. If you have any talent in design, you'll be able to see your mistakes and adjust accordlingly without any playtest. Although a playtest can be handy.

I've always recommended people to experiment with what's on offer in terms of entities and functionality. Build experimental rooms to see what can be achieved, and to get to know the game in question. It's always handy to know the original source of the game so HL2 mapping experience is very useful, but not necassery if you've done your research.

My first couple maps were distributed through friends for private testing and my first release wasn't for 3 years. But that's just me being a perfectionist, and it really started off as experimenting anyway. I never expected to be releasing anything professional when i started. It was just making underground prisons with rooms like out of Alien Resurrection where you could torture vortigaunts and headcrabs with different weaponry and enviromental damage.

Of course people these days are far too impatient and end up releasing their first map anyway, in all its flawed glory.

 

[Dr. Spud]

If you have any talent in design, you'll be able to see your mistakes and adjust accordlingly without any playtest.

:O Um...

 

[Terr]

If you have any talent in design, you'll be able to see your mistakes and adjust accordlingly without any playtest.

Grazr: I am your mapper!
Woman: Well I didn't vote for you!
Grazr: You don't vote for mappers, they're just talented.
Woman: Well how'd you get talent then?

Grazr: The Lady of the Leak, her arm clad in the purest shimmering nodraw, held aloft the Hammer from the busom of the water shader surface, signifying by divine providence that I, Grazr, was to map with Hammer. That is why I am your mapper!...

Dennis:Listen, strange women lyin' in brushes distributin' apps is no basis for a system of communal improvement! Supreme crea'ive power derives from s'perience over time, not from some farcical rendered ceremony!

__________

Dang, now I have to do another.

When I first came here, this was all a solid brush. Everyone said I was daft to build a map inside a brush, but I carved it all the same, just to show them. It crashed the compiler. So I built a second one. And that one crashed the compiler. So I built a third. That froze hammer, made me reboot, and then crashed the compiler. But the fourth one stayed up. And that's what you're going to get, Son: The best-sealed map in all of England.

 

[YM]

You guys are shooting down the absolute truth. All too often people get to a point and then say they can't possibly do any more on their map untill it's been playtested.
What utter rubbish, you are your own best critic and if you have the nack for level design theres masses you can do without any playtesting at all. Admittedly you might get something horribly wrong because it plays out unexpectedly but there are always unknowns in anything.
After all I'm sure a writer can write a masterpiece of a novel without it ever being read by anyone else

I have to agree with everything grazr says, too many impatient people releasing their first experiments in all their flawed glory hoping it will be amazing.

 

[JoshuaC]

If you have any talent in design, you'll be able to see your mistakes and adjust accordlingly without any playtest. Although a playtest can be handy.

I'm sorry but not even Valve follows this philosophy. And to even say this shows alot of inexperience in doing anything.

 

[Dr. Spud]

You guys are shooting down the absolute truth. All too often people get to a point and then say they can't possibly do any more on their map untill it's been playtested.
What utter rubbish, you are your own best critic and if you have the nack for level design theres masses you can do without any playtesting at all. Admittedly you might get something horribly wrong because it plays out unexpectedly but there are always unknowns in anything.
After all I'm sure a writer can write a masterpiece of a novel without it ever being read by anyone else

I'm not really sure what you're saying about playtesting, because you argued that it's unnecessary, then proved yourself wrong by saying something can go horribly wrong...

Plus it's pretty unfair to use a writing analogy with respect to making levels. Books aren't interactive, let alone do they have multiple readers effecting what text is written on the page. Plus, dude, name me a famous novelist who didn't have an editor.

 

[Terr]

Certainly, "I can't map further without a playtest" is technically false....

However, isn't it really shorthand for: "I could map further without a playtest, but a lot of my work may be wasted if I need to change the overall layout so I should get that nailed down first"?

Certainly you can revise a lot of things on your own, but if you--as a single mapper--can miss a bad texture alignment, shadow, or seam... Then certainly it's a heck of a lot easier to miss issues which aren't visible to the naked eye that only exhibit through group dynamics. (ex. team defense/camping strategies.)

 

[SiniStarR]

i think it's very important for new people to edit valve maps so they can get the gist of what they are doing. After all thats why they are there and Valve offically released them for the purpose to looking at and messing around with. I dont think its necessary to ban or whatever because all it is, is just simple practice for a beginner.

It would probably be easier to just have a rule that says it's ok to upload these mod maps for practice purposes and getting feedback from people but to keep in mind that they are usually ignored and looked down upon and wont be tolerated during maptest days.

Just a thought, but I don't think its needed to shut out people who are just learning.

 

[DJive]

i think it's very important for new people to edit valve maps so they can get the gist of what they are doing. After all thats why they are there and Valve offically released them for the purpose to looking at and messing around with. I dont think its necessary to ban or whatever because all it is, is just simple practice for a beginner.

It would probably be easier to just have a rule that says it's ok to upload these mod maps for practice purposes and getting feedback from people but to keep in mind that they are usually ignored and looked down upon and wont be tolerated during maptest days..

practice for a beginner how? and getting feedback how? on how nice the valve map looked/looks?

I disagree with those reasons.


However i am against banning Valve remade maps.

If TF2Maps.net banned these maps it would be BIAS and look bad..

however..

If we allow them and the community comments on the negative side of using them the authors will learn from it.

 

[Nineaxis]

i think it's very important for new people to edit valve maps so they can get the gist of what they are doing.

I learned how to build maps without ever touching a Valve map. I learned how to build maps by... building maps. From scratch. So I learned how to do things like make brushwork, scale appropriately, make doors and understand entity logic, so I learned about prop placement, about texturing effectively, so I learned how to receive and act upon feedback, so I learned how to optimize a map, so I learned how to make a map.

Editing someone else's work teaches you nothing. Having someone else do your work for you teaches you nothing. I'm firmly against the notion that editing a Valve map will teach you anything, and releasing it really does nothing for you at all.

Beyond that, I don't know why anyone releases their first maps and expects it to be good. I threw out tons of first maps, but each one, made from scratch, taught me something new and I learned more about using Hammer, and how to make a map. I spent six months working in Hammer before I ever released a map. And that map was [ame=http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=3891]Stovepipe Wells[/ame], which became a popular map in its day and placed second in our second annual mapping contest.

In summary, learn how to map, don't release your first map, and editing Valve maps does nothing for you, me, or anyone here, or anywhere. Learn how to map.







That being said, because of the immense majority of new users who don't go by that philosophy, trying to ban edited Valve maps would be a pain and get us nowhere.

 

[Terr]

I would certainly agree many people don't create enough new work if they start from a Valve map, but it doesn't prevent learning.

For example, if you are adding a new spawn room, do you really learn less if the final product is placed into open field of an existing map compared to placed within a dev-textured cube?

Even detailing the outside of the building, the main shortcut would be the already-formulaic texture choices.

Sure, perhaps you can skip out on some of the macro-level layout and positioning, but there's still opportunities for learning going on.

If you add a new wing to a house or even just build a new staircase, that's still experience in carpentry. If you add a feature or squash a bug in an existing product, that's still programming. Even if you didn't "build the house" or "write the program". Why would mapping be different?

 

[Nineaxis]

Because we deal in the art of macro-level layout and design. You can't build a new staircase for carpentry experience and then market yourself as having the experience needed to draft, construct, and do interior design for an apartment building. You can't squash a bug in an application and apply for a job as lead programmer in large scale business software.

Likewise, sure, while doing small things in Hammer is experience in mapping, it doesn't teach you what is needed to make a map from scratch. And that is the key here.

 

[nik]

Perhaps if there was a map "probation period" where the community votes whether or not the reworked valve map should be deleted or not..

or maybe we just aren't proactive enough for this :|

 

[Terr]

Because we deal in the art of macro-level layout and design.

Isn't this "GameAgnosticMapLayouts.net?

___

But, seriously... Then isn't the real question: "Why must they learn macro-layout first?"

Why welcome a newbie working on big dev-layout brushes (who doesn't know anything about texturing or detailing) while rejecting those who are learning it from the other direction and dismissing them as "not learning to map" by comparison? Surely you would be equally unsatisfied with those who stop at "orange" maps as much as those never going beyond Valve remakes?

 

[UKCS-Alias]

I think that edited valve maps are fine as long as there clearly has been some time spent on it. Some just change minor parts like just addings more stairs to 2fort and instantly call it a new map without even testing everything.

I have edited a valve map once (de_dust_extended) and noticed that if you want to do it in a good way it still takes quite some time (detail, optimizing, playtesting - the most important step, bugfixing in the new areas). Because of that a valve map that has some major changes that also change the gameplay and require alot of testing to be done to ensure the map plays well again should be allowed on here. Valve maps often arent designed for 32 player IR servers, those servers often cant play maps like goldrush in a decent way. To me people should be allowed to edit them trying to make it suitable for 32 players, but only when they clearly show that they took time into detailing and optimizing the new part and playtesting the map.

Its about how people do it that matters. Any cheap edit where FPSB get flooded with shouldnt be on here. Someone who takes time into doing the changes well should be, its a diffirent mapping process but its definitely usefull. People that do such maps well often know alot about gameplay aspects that matter.

 

[shadowfax]

What is the point of mapping for everyone here? Is it to show off your own talent/skill? Or is it to create something enjoyable for the players? If it is the latter then it doesn't matter if the map created is an edited valve map, an orange map, or a completely original design, if the player base enjoys it you did your job. If the player base does not enjoy edited valve maps then the mapper will learn that simply editing isn't enough. (or the will continue to do so but their maps won't be played). Either way there is no harm done.

In addition I return to Valves statement on their blog

For example, you could start by fine-tuning cover in Goldrush, alter the layout of Granary, or tweak the amount of health and ammo in Gravelpit. Or maybe you just have a ton of ideas on how you think you could improve Hydro or 2Fort. We'd love to see what you come up with.

It seems that Valve wants people to release their simple edits. Why should we exclude those people?

 

[JoshuaC]

What is the point of mapping for everyone here? Is it to show off your own talent/skill? Or is it to create something enjoyable for the players? If it is the latter then it doesn't matter if the map created is an edited valve map, an orange map, or a completely original design, if the player base enjoys it you did your job. If the player base does not enjoy edited valve maps then the mapper will learn that simply editing isn't enough. (or the will continue to do so but their maps won't be played). Either way there is no harm done.

In addition I return to Valves statement on their blog


It seems that Valve wants people to release their simple edits. Why should we exclude those people?

In the end it's all about getting people interested in mapping. Shunning people or acting elitist towards people who do these edits do nothing for the mapping community.

 

[jpr]

I myself map because I want to create something, I would never edit a valve map, because then the result would not be my own creation... Otherwise I would be ok with valve map edits, but for some reason they get more attention, positive attention that is, from generic retards than real custom maps that people spent months making.

 

[grazr]

Supreme crea'ive power derives from s'perience over time

Like 8 years? Or should i map longer so that i may be told by people who've seemingly just stumbled across this industry, when i'm capable enough?

I'm not trying to make out like i'm some god gifted individual. Anyone who understands the gameplay mechanics of a game is capable of creating an appropriate design response with little to no playtesting at all, depending on the goals and intentions of the maps design. The more experimental the map, the more testing will obviously need to be done.

So, if you're going to make a standard A/D CP. Anyone familiar with TF2 and Hammer, i would expect to be able to create the whole entity system and layout and still play out well with no previous gameplay testing.

As Youme said, there will always be the odd hiccup or unknown as we are only human. But said human will be able to take into account scaling, class pro's and con's, height advantages, common player tactics, the effects of uber's and estimate/derive % of assault successes to balance. Give or take average player intelligence. All the while making sure the map is optimised and generally fun. That's what design is; problem solving, and if you have dealt with all these issues you know the appropriate resolutions for said issues before these issues even arise. Essentially predicting playtesting, negating its initial use. I did not say you would never need it.

I'm not sure what problem you have with this concept. But feel free to mock me more without contributing anything helpful or intelligent to the discussion.