Why not just ban reworked Valve maps?

Discussion in 'Site Discussion' started by potatocubed, Aug 26, 2009.

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  1. potatocubed

    potatocubed L1: Registered

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    I get that the people here don't like reworked Valve maps. Would it make things easier to have a big piece of text on the new map posting screen that says "Reworked Valve maps will be deleted without warning" and then just have the moderators blat them wherever they show up?

    I figure it would be less painful all round - community members should end up seeing fewer reworkings and n00bs will be made explicitly aware of community standards, rather than only finding out how much you don't like reworkings when they post one and get sporked in the face.

    Or add a line to the 'read this before you post' thread in the maps forum that says "We do not like reworked Valve maps. If you post one, expect a slating." Less effective, but less hassle to enforce.
     
  2. Xi.Cynx

    aa Xi.Cynx Former Alias: †Blade†

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    I like that idea actually. I think if there is more enforcing that re-worked valve maps are of a much much much lower standard around here and that we don't want them here, and get rid of them once found it will eventually just be known around that this community is more than your average n00b map posting site and that we are actually trying to accomplish more than your average wannabe mapper trying to get some "glory". I give you my vote on this potatocubed :)
     
  3. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    It would be interesting to see a poll of this.

    Personally i'm nuetral on 'banning' them. Posting a reworked map is still an oppotunity to get advice on whats bad and good about the design. It's the actual injection of the map into the community servers that is what most people are against, because of the principle behind making a quality map. Or the subsequent dellusion that they will be heiled as a skilled level designer because they made a map of a particular standard of detail that really isn't their own. It's Valve's. Amongst other more specific and personal offences such as laziness on the "author's" part, or lack of creativity.

    These types of maps should be kept to ones self, or FPSB at best. But not a lot of people get the whole level design scene.

    Right now educating new mappers on the concept of a good map is probably the best step to take. Rather than blanking them out altogether. Pointing them in the direction of FPSB and numerous replies from several members re-itterating the same opinions, is probably more effective than a strict forum rule.

    Original maps will always be more welcome as they improve and widen the game experience that everyone knows and enjoys. Creating a sticky thread listing the reasons why they wont be tolerated might be the next appropriate resolution, but it seems a little extreme to ban them.

    It seems like more unecassery work for moderators who're more productive hosting game days for the 'important/loyal' members of the community (to a lack of better words). Just shewing them off to another place without an ear seems to be avoiding or ignoring the problem.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2009
  4. eerieone

    aa eerieone

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    the giant tsunami that hit us a while ago with remakes has gone back and hasn´t left that big of chaos. it would be counterproductive to block off people immediately who show interest in mapping.
    sure, there might be some bad apples, but those submission and their threads get the agro up fast and die as quickly as they were posted.
    we´d lose some people that use that as a stepping stone and start their very own map after that.
     
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  5. Xi.Cynx

    aa Xi.Cynx Former Alias: †Blade†

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    I take my vote back, Lol. the way you worded your reply made much more sense of how to handle things. Maybe we can create a new section for test maps that will not be available for download? Just for maps that people want to screw around on and test out new ideas without the harshness of knowing that it could get spread around. Lots of screenshots, but never a bsp or vmf upload of it. I think that that could be a possible solution but idk how hard it would be to setup or if it would just "create more hassle" so to speak. just throwin' an idea out there.
     
  6. PenPen

    PenPen L5: Dapper Member

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    I think what we have currently is fine. When someone posts a reworked map (or a lazier map like 2fort_night or whatnot), we currently have most people going in and saying "editing Valve maps as your own release is bad etc" along with the occasional comment on the work itself. Which I think is okay and brings the message across.

    I think it's better off with something like a statement beforehand saying "TF2Maps don't support edited or reworked maps" and stuff like that (in the maps forum). Make them know that feedback will be limited due to what they're doing, so they know the risks involved. There's no need to ban these kind of maps, we just need to be clear with our stance.

    Personally I think if you are editing a Valve map as a practice tool and see how things would work and such, that is fine with me, even though I don't fully support that. But putting lazy edits and passing it off as a completed product, it's really bad and I'm totally against it. Those edits I would suggest killing with fire if they manage to put it over here.

    So I think what we have here is okay, perhaps make a sticky post about it so people will know what the community thinks of that. And no gamedays on reworked/edited maps, or putting it on the TF2maps server.
     
  7. Spike

    Spike L10: Glamorous Member

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    permaban
     
  8. Xi.Cynx

    aa Xi.Cynx Former Alias: †Blade†

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    [​IMG]
     
  9. drp

    aa drp

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    eerieone hit the nail on the head.
     
  10. Psy

    aa Psy The Imp Queen

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    I'm really not bothered by modified Valve maps and I don't see any justification for all the kerfuffle that was about initially.
     
  11. Xi.Cynx

    aa Xi.Cynx Former Alias: †Blade†

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    kerfuffle?

    • - disorder, commotion

    • - A minor disturbance or disagreement. Smaller than a contretemps, larger than a snag, involving more people or things than a SNAFU or a stink.

    • - Trouble, hassle or when a scuffle!

    • - A social imbroglio or brouhaha. An organizational misunderstanding leading to accusations and defensiveness.
     
  12. shadowfax

    shadowfax L1: Registered

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    When Valve posts this on their blog

    Can you blame people for making and releasing reworked valve maps? It doesn't seem that valve mines people doing it. While I personally would not want to release a reworked valve map I don't see anything wrong with it. I don't think we need to be so elitist to shun people who do just as valve is asking.
     
  13. A Boojum Snark

    aa A Boojum Snark Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado

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    Because every now and then you get a creative one like [ame=http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=7668]this[/ame]
     
  14. Dr. Spud

    aa Dr. Spud Grossly Incandescent

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    Right now most people go "OH editing Valve maps is evil! Nobody should ever do it ever! It's ridiculous!" And I mean sure, 99% of the edits suck.

    But what if someone made an improved version of Hydro with layout changes and solved the stalemate issues. Just saying.
     
  15. Xi.Cynx

    aa Xi.Cynx Former Alias: †Blade†

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    Whoa! It looks really really fun! haha.. damn it! Boojum your always right! :facepalm:
     
  16. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    The vmf's were requested by this (and probably the wider mapping community) for educational purposes, particularly regarding the more sophisticated solid entities that consistently break during decompiles, that thus remained functionally elusive. Infact, TF2 was one of the only HL mods to not come with official vmf SDK releases.

    With this in mind, the vmf's are considered as reference points and to be messed around with like a jigsaw puzzle with multiple possibilities. Not to be rereleased under the pretence of personal fame and glory, or a quick stepping stone onto the mapping scene. 2fort_at_night wont do much for your portfolio.

    In the old days, people actually tried and researched their projects.. the trouble is, now the SDK has been made publicly available via the steam client, any fool and his dog grabs the world editor and thinks he can map. When he realises he can't/can't be arsed, he grabs one of the Valve maps, throws in some stairs or something and then comes to a place like this for a pat on the back. In the past you actually had to find the editor in these small online cults where only people who cared roamed, and so the quality was always very good. No nonsense maps.

    I get sick and tired of telling people "no... noo... NO, stop being an idiot".

    It's demoralising.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2009
  17. The Political Gamer

    aa The Political Gamer

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    Personaliy I don't really mind the maps that change the game mode. It creates some very fun what-it situations, while not being all that fun are interesting to watch. However, I do not approve of maps that change things like the time of day, IE 2fort_night etc. In conclusion, I think we should let in some remakes. Nevertheless, it is up to the admins and mods to decide what to do.
     
  18. Terr

    aa Terr Cranky Coder

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    I'm obviously biased, since my first Hammer project remains an ongoing change to 2fort over the last two months. And no, it's not slapping a few rain effects, changing the sunlight, and raising the water. (Come to think of it, that's a list of things I haven't done, unless you count indoor custom rain.)

    I think it has allowed me to experiment and learn things I wouldn't have encountered yet if I were working from scratch. Physics motors, holes in displacements, smoothing groups and luxel settings, optimization techniques, and custom particles/soundscapes/models/materials.

    And most importantly, I can feel (whether or not others agree) that in the process I have created and added value to something. Even if the map doesn't take off. It's that "engineer's itch" to fix a problem that they encounter. (Why do you think there are so many open-source programmer tools?)

    ____________________

    A side note. I've heard some things about "the reputation of TF2 mapping" in relation to remakes, and I just want to say that from my perspective psychadelic rainbow maps, mario-kart, and orange maps do far more to damage people's opinion of mapping than "2fort_Aesthetic_Change".

    ____________________

    For forum policy, I think "don't change Valve maps" is--whether as a rule or a comment--somewhat self-defeating. If the person is interested in mapping, it's basically coming across as: "Your first project has to be huge." If someone is interested in electronics, do you encourage their interest by saying: "Don't use a kit for anything, buy all wires, transistors, resistors, etc. and build a crystal radio from scratch"?
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2009
  19. MangyCarface

    aa MangyCarface Mapper

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    Nearly every mapper starts here, it's already enough of a dick move to post discouraging comments on a thread. Encourage mapping...
     
  20. Terr

    aa Terr Cranky Coder

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    Here's an idea. Have a regular contest for a "labyrinth mash-up map". Perhaps control-point attack/defend so asymmetry isn't an issue.

    Establish a framework of areas with specific doorways between them, a basic skybox, and allow newbie mappers to choose a room and build into it, with whatever brushwork or decoration will fit. When they're done, they upload a prefab vmf.

    After a time limit and all rooms have content, populate the leak-sealing framework with the prefabs, release it, and make available a list of links to the individual prefabs (which authors themselves uploaded) so that anybody can see how individual rooms were made.

    __________

    OK, so maybe that particular idea is far-fetched, but what kind of meaningful yet discrete learn-by-doing projects can we help provide for people who want to test the waters?
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2009
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