What makes a good Engineer Sentry location?

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by Lain, May 18, 2015.

  1. Lain

    aa Lain Resident wrong opinion holder

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    I am currently making an A/D CP map, and I am having trouble designing areas that work well with sentry guns. I don't necessarily like them, but they need to be catered for, especially on last points. So does anyone (particularly engi mains) know what makes a sentry spot any good?
     
  2. Waffe

    Waffe L4: Comfortable Member

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    I'm not an engi main, but I try to give each sentry spot at least one weakness, be that a nearby corner, easy flankability, easy demospammability or not having range/visibility over the objective. I've noticed that even if you can outrange a sentry it can take a lot of spam to actually take it down (because of the wrangler shield).

    Also, don't put large ammopacks too close to good sentry spots, that makes it much more easy to hole up as an engi
     
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  3. Zed

    aa Zed Certified Most Crunk™

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    Put large ammo kits near but not immediately in the location of where you think the sentry spot will be. Generally speaking, the best defensive sentry spots have:
    1. Immediate coverage over the objective itself
    2. Few areas outside of their range where they can get easily spammed out
    The sentry positions on Barnblitz second and last, as well as Upward last are incredibly strong because of these reasons.
    Just in general, test to see where strong sentry placements will be. Try to give each one different pros and cons. Badwater and Gorge's last points are great examples of this. Each individual sentry has its own weakness, be it flankability, spammability, or lack of coverage.
     
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  4. RubbishyUser

    RubbishyUser L7: Fancy Member

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    Hi, engineer main here.

    Badwater is a good example because every point has 3 real sentry spots: one spot without health and ammo that watches the cart and is in good cover (in the cubby by point 1, for example), one spot with plenty of health, ammo, and cover but that does not watch the cart (by the rock formation on point 1), and one spot with health and ammo that watches the cart but can be seen from a long distance so is likely to be spammed (here, on the high ground; but it isn't always). The last point brings it up a notch with another sentry spot to check. That means you should pick two of three things at each sentry spot:

    • Good health and ammo (minimum full ammo)
    • Watches the cart/point
    • Cannot be spammed from afar

    However, this is just a rough guide. Valve has stated in the past that when they made maps, they watched where engineers wanted to build and just put ammo near them. So just try and get some spots in for a1 and fiddle from there. Offensive engineers usually have it tougher, but they can usually find somewhere to play without you needing to design for them.
     
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    Last edited: May 18, 2015
  5. Lain

    aa Lain Resident wrong opinion holder

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    Thank you all for the information. I think I may have decently balanced Sentry Gun locations for A1.
     
  6. iiboharz

    aa iiboharz Meme Queen

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    The key thing to remember is that a lot of engineer spots aren't implemented by the mapper, in many cases players discover their own locations that you may not even be aware of.

    I guess you can build purpose-built engineer spots but in most cases a lot of the spots you'll find people using will just be found by players.
     
  7. Muddy

    Server Staff Muddy Muddy

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    I find that bots are really good at finding effective sentry spots.
     
  8. Trotim

    aa Trotim

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    It should cover as much area as possible without being exposed to corners or spots it can be sniped (i.e. Soldiered) from

    High ground is great because it makes it much harder to hit it, or you, with splash damage. Not having a wall directly behind it helps for that reason and lets the Engineer dodge better inbetween repairs

    Some spots are especially strong because Spies have a hard time getting to them. Any time there are narrow stairs leading up to a Sentry spot I can guarantee you Engineers will block it by putting a Dispenser in the way. The healing they provide is negligible anyway

    One of the strongest Sentry spots in pubs is Barnblitz 2nd above the track. Very difficult to contest because the stairs up to it are supposed to be a flank but are very easy to defend

    This may just be me but forcing Sentry spots to exist by putting full ammo boxes is a bit boring. Makes Engineers sit there and just hold M1. Remember that Engineers during setup will optimize the route to get the most metal in the shortest time in order to maximize the amount of upgrading they can do - it would be really cool if doing some kind of skillful jump shortened your route by a couple seconds.

    On Badwater 1st the full ammo boxes make some sense because it wouldn't be possible to get a nest up fast enough otherwise but I still prefer layouts like Upward 1st where the full ammo is some distance away

    With the Rescue Ranger Engineers will often want to back out of an area ahead of time when they know the team is losing an area and teleport their Sentry back to them. Not being able to see your Sentry from the escape route weakens a spot nowadays
     
  9. UKCS-Alias

    aa UKCS-Alias Mann vs Machine... or... Mapper vs Meta?

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    That also has to do with the balance. Sentry spots generaly are in the same spot as that influences the balance alot better. A static place means you can often go for blind spam and have a certain chance of succes.

    They also provide the part that a newbie can easily pick the same spot an expert would. It gives a low learning skill yet has a decent effect. The expert in this part is mainly better at ensuring survival/prolonging combat.

    They are logical, when the players pick spots and arent decided by ammo it gives a good feeling for an engineer. You might have a strong spot at a location that doesnt feel comfortable, but that will just end up into frustration. And it also requires you to know the map, again the point that makes the expert getting a huge advantage.

    You also want static nests for teleporter reasons. If you dont know where the tele will be you get the issue that you could confuse those that come out of it and make them walk backward. This makes it counter productive. With static positions you ensure that players dont get lost.

    And last. Instead of 10 potential nests per point having only 3 ensures a more static flow. If an expert could pick a spot a newbie wouldnt get trying to balance between those 2 groups is somewhat impossible. The only thing that is acceptable is that an expert could choose between left, right, a little more to the front or back. As long as its close to the normal spot it will still feel natural to the players. If they can build at 10 spots you need to check all 10 of them, its effort you dont want to give those that are attacking. You often want them to have a clear view as they are already the one taking the risk of approaching.
     
  10. MegapiemanPHD

    aa MegapiemanPHD Doctorate in Deliciousness

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    Every spot is a good spot for mini sentries.