Valve hates snipers

[grazr]

This is what irritates me for the most part, because this simply does not happen. Saying that without any kind of aim, a sniper will always headshot someone at close range is like saying that every shot a soldier fires is a crit.

No it's not, because it does happen, and i'm not sure how many people have agreed already. 5?

Saying "Saying that without any kind of aim, a sniper will always headshot someone at close range is like saying that every shot a soldier fires is a crit." is what irritates you seems silly because the analogy is fundamentally flawed. A headshot will always crit with an arrow, there's nothing to garauntee a rocket will crit and insta-kill. So what's that all about? Firing an arrow in the general direction of an enemy within 10ft will almost always headshot. This is what Nineaxis was trying to say. I don't know what you don't understand about this statement. Something is screwy with either the hitbox or lag compensation or SOMETHING that garauntees that 99.9999% of point blank arrow shots result in a headshot.

In all honesty, I have never seen a sniper run around and engage in close combat wielding only the Huntsman and begin to murder everyone around them.

We're not talking about combat-medic style snipers, although they have frequently been refered to as such by the TF2 community, we're talking about ambushing a sniper (which is what the standard approach to killing them IS, as any other approach is retarded because they are a SNIPER) and them turning around and headshotting you consistantly when they notice (like you damage them or they hear you uncloak), without any chance to evade other than not engaging them at all.

PS: I've been hit in a place other than the before and haven't died... as a scout.

It obviously wasn't fully charged and therefor failed to deal 100% potential damage.

But you are right, plugging 2 crit headshots into a huntsman sniper is probably the best tactic to employ, especially if they have the razorback. The trouble is a spy's main targets are sentry's, snipers and heavy's and when you have to physically avoid your 'prey' something seems at odds. But it's not even that this is just an issue with spy's, it's an issue with any class that intends to get in close and bat the hell out of the sniper. Their supposed weakness.

It's not that the huntsman should not be significantly nerfed, there's not a problem with it's damage dealing, just that the consistant pointblank headshots is a major issue, one that contradicts Valve's own criteria for the very invention of the weapon in the first place.

 

[Penguin]

Valve hates HEAVIES.

 

[Grimes]

In all honesty, I have never seen a sniper run around and engage in close combat wielding only the Huntsman and begin to murder everyone around them.

While a sniper probably won't live long with that approach, it is possible to surgically kill everyone if you are not their main target. The other night on badwater basin, the cart was moving out of the tunnel near the first cap. Several different classes were pushing the cart, one of which was a uber ready medic/heavy combo. I simply got to that cliff directly above the tunnel exit. All the baddies were worried about my teammates directly on or near the point around the corner. I let out some good ole death from above. Got 4-5 kills in 15 seconds. It effectively stopped that push and we held onto the point until time ran out.

IMO most of the hunstman kills is a bit of skill, and a bit of luck. I can't think of how many times I just shot at a high traffic area and sure enough someone unwittingly ran into my arrow. Or how many times I was shooting at one player and another got in the line of fire.

Its supposed to be epic and awesome at short to medium ranges. Thats part of the tradeoff between it and the standard sniper rifle remember?

 

[grazr]

Yea, i've noticed huntsman snipers are most effective at payload maps or camping high traffic area's and blindly firing into a crowd. You're bound to get one headshot. on CTF maps the huntsman is more like a self preservation weapon. You will kill people specifically targeting you quite easily but your effectiveness to take out specific players at range falls. Kinda defeating the point of him really. Much in the same way that spy's litter 2Forts battlements now, headshotting snipers. Something i had always joked about before release, not expecting the weapon to actually play as retardedly as it sounded.

 

[MrAlBobo]

No it's not, because it does happen, and i'm not sure how many people have agreed already. 5?

How many people have said the huntsman is not OP? 5? So honestly, who gives a damn <_<

Saying "Saying that without any kind of aim, a sniper will always headshot someone at close range is like saying that every shot a soldier fires is a crit." is what irritates you seems silly because the analogy is fundamentally flawed. A headshot will always crit with an arrow, there's nothing to garauntee a rocket will crit and insta-kill. So what's that all about? Firing an arrow in the general direction of an enemy within 10ft will almost always headshot. This is what Nineaxis was trying to say. I don't know what you don't understand about this statement. Something is screwy with either the hitbox or lag compensation or SOMETHING that garauntees that 99.9999% of point blank arrow shots result in a headshot.

Honestly...you are so horribly wrong <_<
I don't know how many times I need to say this...but firing an arrow does not instantly mean its a headshot I don't know where you got this from. What I was saying is that assuming that every arrow ever fired is a headshot, is fundamentally the same as saying from my side that a soldier will always maximize their damage, namely with a crit. There is nothing to guarantee that every shot ever fired by a sniper at less then 10ft will always hit, let alone always crit. There is NOTHING wrong with the hitbox, a shot that is fired at the head will count as a headshot.

untill I see a corpse of someone I headshot with an arrow sticking out of his foot, I don't buy that there is anything wrong with the hitbox

It's not that the huntsman should not be significantly nerfed, there's not a problem with it's damage dealing, just that the consistant pointblank headshots is a major issue, one that contradicts Valve's own criteria for the very invention of the weapon in the first place.

I still see no way that the ability to shoot someone in the head is a huge problem...

oh and I checked, huntsman does not get 2 points for a headshot

 

[grazr]

I don't know how many times I need to say this...but firing an arrow does not instantly mean its a headshot I don't know where you got this from.

Read what you just said.

Now read what nineaxis said.

Last night before the contest map testing event began, me and TMP were messing around, he was trying to reflect arrows. Not once, not twice, but three times, at a range of nine or ten feet, I aimed at his stomach (to make it easier to reflect because that's where the flamethrower is held), let go, and got a headshot for it. Utter BS.

Not only this, but I got this from 46 hours of playing TF2 and trying to melee huntsman when i flank them. Snipers agitate me as i play soldier and it's difficult enough to cross nomans land on 2fort between the spam, so i make it a point that when i pass by the sniper spots to make a pass at them.

Firing an arrow does not instantly make it a headshot.

Firing an arrow at point blank range seems to produce a headshot regardless of where i or anyone else shoot at a player, provided i'm not aiming below the waist.

I suggest you reread what nineaxis said and the revise everything you just said.

I still see no way that the ability to shoot someone in the head is a huge problem...

The ability to shoot someone in the head is not a problem. That's not what i was saying. The ability to shoot someone in the arm, chest or even significantly miss the head altogether and get a headshot is.

 

[MrAlBobo]

Read what nineaxis said.

Last night before the contest map testing event began, me and TMP were messing around, he was trying to reflect arrows. Not once, not twice, but three times, at a range of nine or ten feet, I aimed at his stomach (to make it easier to reflect because that's where the flamethrower is held), let go, and got a headshot for it. Utter BS.

Now read what I said

Where was the arrow when you did this? was it in hit head or in his stomach?
If it was in his head then you either can't aim, or you held the arrow for more then 5 seconds resulting in it skewing off at a random angle, when you just so happened to be exceptionally lucky and get a headshot.

Not only this, but I got this from 70+ hours of playing TF2 since the update and meleeing huntsman users with no problem.

Firing an arrow at point blank range seems to produce a headshot regardless of where i or anyone else shoot at a player, provided i'm not aiming below the waist.

No...just...no

I suggest you reread what nineaxis said and why he is incorrect and revise everything you just said.

The ability to shoot someone in the head is not a problem. That's not what i was saying. The ability to shoot someone in the arm, chest or even significantly miss the head altogether and get a headshot is.

I agree completely with this, but I in no way see how this is relevant to the current debate.

 

[MrAlBobo]

in an expression of how this is going absolutely nowhere

i recorded a demo http://www.customgamers.org/arrows.zip
it entails shooting a heavy and a scout at varying ranges and locations

during this I noticed 2 things a class that is shorter then the sniper has high odds of being hs at very close ranges, primarily the scout, who not only is short, but leans forward, begging for a headshot, so a sniper on higher ground is more likely to get a headshot (obvious, but still)

whereas a heavy is taller and so a 180 headshot is less likely

you will notice that there is no point where I got a headshot without aiming at the head

also, the arrow when fired does not spawn where it should according to the bow model, it spawns a very short distance to the left

 

[grazr]

] playdemo arrows
CDemoFile::Open: couldn't open file arrows.dem for reading.

edit: extracted to folder above which it was supposed to be in. >.> Watched it.. and..

It doesn't really show much. Half of those arrows you looked down and hit them in the hand, and your target was standing still. You got a couple chest shots on a stationary scout, and you aim at their waist at point blank range. A player is not going to be aiming below the waist, especially in light of the fact that the arrow has an arch, even in close combat.

I'll try and make my own demo of examples of actual combat rather than shooting someone in an empty server while they stand still. Maybe this will show a more accurate representation of what is actually happening ingmae. But i was tired of this argument before posting my last post. I made my point and agreed with nineaxis. I'll post the demo later.

 

[MrAlBobo]

] playdemo arrows
CDemoFile::Open: couldn't open file arrows.dem for reading.

edit: extracted to folder above which it was supposed to be in. >.> Watched it.. and..

It doesn't really show much. Half of those arrows you looked down and hit them in the hand, and your target was standing still. You got a couple chest shots on a stationary scout, and you aim at their waist at point blank range. A player is not going to be aiming below the waist, especially in light of the fact that the arrow has an arch, even in close combat.

I'll try and make my own demo of examples of actual combat rather than shooting someone in an empty server while they stand still. Maybe this will show a more accurate representation of what is actually happening ingmae. But i was tired of this argument before posting my last post. I made my point and agreed with nineaxis. I'll post the demo later.

fine, make your demo

you should realize though that the point of this was not to show realism just that this is untrue

The ability to shoot someone in the arm, chest or even significantly miss the head altogether and get a headshot is.

ill freely admit that its easy to get a headshot because the characters head takes up half your screen at point blank range, but I will never agree that shooting them anywhere results in a headshot

and personally I will never see this as a problem unless it happens to me and i can find no way to avoid it