Valve hates snipers

Discussion in 'Team Fortress 2 Talk' started by Ravidge, Jun 12, 2009.

  1. Ravidge

    aa Ravidge Grand Vizier

    Messages:
    1,544
    Positive Ratings:
    2,492
    Hitboxes doesn't move when taunting.
    Hitboxes doesn't move when a spy disguises.
    Sniper Rifle still doesn't shoot trough friendly players.
    The Razorback
    ...
    .

    Guess who is the new sniper? THE SPY :blink:
    Seriously, I wish I could do either of these with my rifle:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    Sorry!
    /me stops whining
     
  2. Nineaxis

    aa Nineaxis Quack Doctor

    Messages:
    1,767
    Positive Ratings:
    1,403
    Cry some more...

    The Huntsman always headshots at a range of closer than five feet, effectively removing any need for the sniper to pull out a melee weapon, giving some time for the attacker to attack.

    One Huntsman arrow can take out 2/3 of a Level 3 Sentry's health.

    One Huntsman arrow cripples pretty much any class to the point they have to run away, most likely to their resupply cabinet.

    ...Huntsman is OP. Don't say "Oh, but it's harder to aim, you have to predict where your target will be to hit them! It balances out!", because seriously, it's not that hard to get used to using it, and you don't have to aim it if your target is within five feet of you, you can aim at their foot and get a headshot.

    Ambassador on the other hand- requires a learning curve and a buildup of skill to use effectively, not twenty minutes of play to adjust to the arrow's speed. Snipers tend to snipe from areas where no one is attacking them, where they can aim in peace. Spies using their Ambassador tend to be under attack, and trying to punch as many holes in their enemy as possible. Getting a headshot under pressure without a scope and with your bullet spread increasing... hard enough to achieve. I've been playing spy pretty constantly since the update, and since I've gotten my Ambassador, and I'm just starting to be able to pull off the occasional headshot kill while running backwards.

    Huntsman snipers have been headshotting, bodyshotting, and the-air-beside-me-shotting since day one.

    I don't know what hitbox the Huntsman uses, but it's fudged. Your head is a balloon, and your box extends a foot to each side of you. I've watched, on more than one occasion, on my screen, an arrow fly past me and into a wall, then a half second later, I'll die of a head or bodyshot.

    Now I know you use the rifle, and I congratulate you on making a reasonable decision, playing sniper like a sniper instead of battle-insta-kill sniper, running to the front line and being able to instantly kill anyone at close range.
     
  3. The Political Gamer

    aa The Political Gamer

    Messages:
    4,468
    Positive Ratings:
    1,682
    Yay I am a horrible shot with the spy.
     
  4. drp

    aa drp

    Messages:
    2,251
    Positive Ratings:
    2,551
    the issue with the sniper RIFLE, not the huntsman.
     
  5. Shmitz

    aa Shmitz Old Hat

    Messages:
    1,129
    Positive Ratings:
    740
    All your bad experiences encountering point blank huntsman snipers... replace that with ambassador spies, and that's been my experience. I've had far more point blank headshot issues with the Ambassador than I have the Huntsman.
     
  6. Nineaxis

    aa Nineaxis Quack Doctor

    Messages:
    1,767
    Positive Ratings:
    1,403
    Can one not counter the issue of "Valve hates snipers"? I didn't see any limit to only agreeing that the Ambassador can technically do more than a sniper rifle, you know, other than have precision aim and charge and kill with a single headshot.
     
  7. Sgt Frag

    Sgt Frag L14: Epic Member

    Messages:
    1,443
    Positive Ratings:
    294
    Rockets don't shoot through friendly players and you take splash damage. Does Valve hate soldiers? No, not until update right.

    I think it's just as hard to use ambassador as it is to use the huntsman but the spy can't throw Jarate first to weaken his enemy. Gotta compare apples to apples. sniper rifles aren't meant for noscope close range headshots.

    And shooting a standstill bot at close range doesn't convince me of anything, I could no scope headshot that way too.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  8. Brandished

    Brandished L5: Dapper Member

    Messages:
    234
    Positive Ratings:
    293
    Using bots isn't a reliable way for testing hitboxes. I've seen a noticeable difference between hitboxes for bots and actual "live" players, the bot code in general has always been somewhat buggy.
     
  9. uma plata

    uma plata L6: Sharp Member

    Messages:
    298
    Positive Ratings:
    86
    Soldiers get the short end. Snipers and spies can stop with the QQ

    1. Issue above, a major one
    2. Rocket splash damage does not go through enemies, like it does for grenades & stickies
    3. Soldier self-damage reduction nerf basically is a death sentence for any close range soldier v scout encounter. All they have to do is score one decent shot on you, then get in your face, and you kill yourself with self-damage because that's the only option. The reason for the nerf? Pyro players whining that they couldn't W+M1 soldiers without getting juggled. So pyro gets airblast, but the self damage increase remains? wtf
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  10. Ravidge

    aa Ravidge Grand Vizier

    Messages:
    1,544
    Positive Ratings:
    2,492
    Rockets go through friendly players the first second or so, after that they will collide with anything. Splash damage from an explosive weapon is to be expected.

    I never said it was easy to use the ambassador or huntsman. Just pointed out it (Ambassador) has features I feel fit the sniper a lot better than the spy.

    And you can't noscope headshot anything, that was removed from the game a year ago.

    While on the topic of jarate, it's a terrible combination with the rifle, anything affected by it can't be headshotted (only mini-critted) making it pretty useless (with the rifle).
     
  11. MrAlBobo

    MrAlBobo L13: Stunning Member

    Messages:
    1,059
    Positive Ratings:
    219
    First I feel I should point out the ravidge never even hinted at mentioning the huntsman...and I do agree with him that if spys gun can go through people the rifle should as well...

    Now on to nines amusing post...
    I always find it hilarious when people consider the huntsman overpowered, as there are far more bs weapons in the game that no one ever bats an eye at. Ill say rockets/ soldiers are my most despised weapon in the game. So ill do a comparative analysis.

    Huntsman can deal up to 125 damage with a bodyshot, rockets can deal up to 125 damage (much higher if its a crit). Huntsman has a 1 second charge time to fire, rockets fire instantly. Huntsman has a 3 second reload time between every shot, soldier has a 1.5 second reload time for one rocket and a 4 second reload for all 4 rockets. Rockets have splash damage, huntsman is precision at close range. Huntsman can headshot (max 300 damage, overhealed heavy lives) soldier can crit (over and over as it seems). Arrows lose altitude over distance, rockets do not. Arrows move faster then rockets. Rockets can be fired 4 times by the time another arrow is reloaded. (which takes down sentry faster in similar situation) You are also unable to quickly switch to the huntsman, as every time you pull it out you need to nock an arrow 1st.
    So...yeah...why does no one ever bitch about rockets? Seem much worse to me...

    And meh, I don't know who you've been playing that "always" headshots with the huntsman, as its certainly not from your experience using the huntsman. I admit I happen to think its skill/ luck (more likely luck) when I can whip around and headshot the spy behind me with my already nocked arrow. In similar situations other classes would do far better at taking out the sentry, namely the soldier. Even been burned, hit by a rocket, blasted by a scattergun/ fan, been hit by a pipe bomb? There seem like alot of reasons to go back to spawn and heal...provided thats what you do <_< . Is the huntsman that hard to use, no not really but at the same time do you think you would be able to beat me/ ewok/ drpepper/ djive in a huntsman contest? If you answered no then there is obviously a skill curve. I choose to ignore irrelevant statement about hitboxes. Ill admit I don't see an exceptional skill curve to the ambassador, primarily because ive yet to see anyone actually own with it...Though I must admit that when someone hs's me with it, I find it mildly impressive...

    just for the hell of it, some of my psychostats info
    deaths from rockets: 267
    deaths from knife: 80
    deaths from arrows: 150
    deaths from ambassador: 36
    these kinda justify my opinions :p
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2009
  12. TMP

    aa TMP Abuser of Site Rules

    Messages:
    948
    Positive Ratings:
    551
  13. Mar

    Mar Banned

    Messages:
    607
    Positive Ratings:
    63
    @Nine: While the huntsman is nice up close, the sniper is a weak class and any power class or scout can take him out no problem in close range. I personally have never found that in close range you get headshots no matter where you shoot. Never happened to me once.

    The huntsman sucks, becuase from a far distance away, where the sniper is most effective, it's too hard to hit players with. Even heavies have no problem dogging this. For more on this check out this earlier thread on the huntsman.

    The huntsman and the jarate did to the sniper what the blutsauger did to the medic. Now you have battle medics and battle snipers.
     
  14. MrAlBobo

    MrAlBobo L13: Stunning Member

    Messages:
    1,059
    Positive Ratings:
    219
    what does this prove?
    your rocket deaths are at minimum twice as high as any of your other deaths
     
  15. Rootbeerz

    Rootbeerz L1: Registered

    Messages:
    35
    Positive Ratings:
    3
    Actually, I find the huntsman one of the best weapons in the game. It's all about timing, estimation, and guessing when people will come around corners. If you get good enough with the bow, you can seriously tear up some people with it. I haven't played a whole ton on the server yet, but most of my kills are with the huntsman.
    http://tf2maps.net/stats/player.php?id=4270

    Now since I have the worst aim ever, I suck with the Ambassador. Yes, the gun is extremely powerful, but the reason why you are getting shot is I'll assume you don't move around a lot. As a sniper, I am constantly on the move, either strafing, running around, or changing positions. It's an important thing to do so because I know there are spies around looking to kill me.

    And yes, most of my deaths are also from rockets.
     
  16. TMP

    aa TMP Abuser of Site Rules

    Messages:
    948
    Positive Ratings:
    551
    Well, that's because I blindly rush into a soldier spamming m2!

    No, joking, but seriously, a pyro dies mostly by rockets if the teams are filled with soldiers.

    And I do have like 38 reflectkills with rockets compared to 250 or so deaths, which doesn't include the amount of times I have burned or axed them :(.
     
  17. Anda02

    Anda02 L1: Registered

    Messages:
    29
    Positive Ratings:
    2
    I wouldn't say the Huntsman is OP, but I will agree it is quite balanced. People are good with it can definitely be just as good with people sniper rifles, and much better than people with ambassadors.
    The ambassador should be used against snipers at close range who have the Razorback.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2009
  18. Shmitz

    aa Shmitz Old Hat

    Messages:
    1,129
    Positive Ratings:
    740
    My point is that simply due to human perceptions being what they are, you're going to remember BS deaths at the hands of a huntsman more than you're going to remember BS deaths at the hands of an ambassador, because you actually use the latter, and your memories are balanced out by times when you should have gotten a kill with it but didn't.

    People always remember the things that frustrate them more than the things that go smoothly.

    But since the original issue has nothing to do with the huntsman, I will say that if it is, in fact, easier to get a headshot with the ambassador than the sniper rifle, something is off.
     
  19. Nineaxis

    aa Nineaxis Quack Doctor

    Messages:
    1,767
    Positive Ratings:
    1,403
    But it isn't harder to get a headshot with the ambassador than a sniper rifle, in a standard situation of a spy active and close by enemies and a sniper at some elevated, covered place.

    The sniper doesn't have anyone actively trying to kill him, he can take aim and fire, and then fire again with the same level of accuracy (that is, 100%). Due to the distance from his target, he can more easily aim at their head while they move. After a single headshot, the enemy is dead.

    The spy has been "uncovered" and has an enemy chasing him down. He's running backwards and trying to not headshot necessarily, but kill the enemy before the enemy kills him. After his first shot, his bullet spread increases, making it even harder to accurately strike any portion of his moving target. Unless the enemy has already sustained considerable damage, the ambassador headshot will not kill them.

    Okay, maybe the Ambassador can shoot through teammates, but I'm rarely in a situation in which a teammate is in front of me and I'm firing the Ambassador, and there is no instance I can think of in which I would be able to aim for someone's head with a teammate blocking my view. Snipers tend to have a much better view of the battlefield and with his target and his teammates moving, more likely then not, he can wait a second for either the enemy or teammate to move before pulling the trigger.

    And yes, I find dying to the Huntsman more frustrating because lately, it seems that half the time I try to backstab a Huntsman sniper, either the backstab registration will fail, or the sniper will turn around on their own, and let go of that arrow and it's a headshot.
     
  20. Shmitz

    aa Shmitz Old Hat

    Messages:
    1,129
    Positive Ratings:
    740
    I meant on purely technical grounds (as in, hitbox detection), not practical ones.