CP Teddy final

[Pocket]

You've given your map the final suffix but there are still gameplay, balance and detailing issues that need to be resolved. I don't understand why people are always so hastey to shove "final" onto the end of their map name when they barely tested late beta/RC versions.

IMO no map should ever be "final", because you'll always find things to change. Even Valve's maps are never final; they're just publicly released... which of course any custom map already is no matter what version it is. I forget who it is who used to name his maps "_v1", "_v2", etc. but I always liked that approach.

 

[honeymustard]

You've given your map the final suffix but there are still gameplay, balance and detailing issues that need to be resolved. I don't understand why people are always so hastey to shove "final" onto the end of their map name when they barely tested late beta/RC versions.

Not having the time to develop the map further before submitting it to the contest is one thing, but the contest isn't the end of the world for your map unless you just don't care about it anymore.

• CP1 is twice as hard to capture as CP2, making the progression of difficulty feel very backwards.
• RED spawn is easily spawn camped from CP2 despite the low wall with the servers blocking direct LoS; BLU can just have 1 or 2 players on the point capturing whilst the rest spam the door from the ledge overlooking the entire room, or demomen can just use their indirect fire to cover themselves.
• RED have no high ground at CP2 meaning any long lasting direct defense of the point is impossible; usually resulting in RED turning to FaN scouts and airblasting pyro's rushing it from the spawn.
• BLU spawn is way too easily spammed for a CP1 level of difficulty. RED's advantages are numerous whilst BLU have as many disadvantages as RED's advantages.
• far flank at the staging area is only of use to the RED team and BLU spy's. Other classes can utilise this area, but their impact is negligable and usually a detriment to their teams progress when not attacking out of the primary spawn exit.

All in all area 1 should not be 3-4 minutes of spawn camping and 1 minute of despirately flushing the capture area of sentry nests.

CP2 should be harder than it is whilst CP1 should be easier. The 52% win ratio for BLU may seem like balance until you realise that most of RED's wins are at CP1 where BLU barely gain any ground at all.

The map still has development progress to be had and shouldn't be final, RC1 at best. Your hasteness is apparent in the fact that you had to update and re-release your map under the same file name which is problematic for servers and clients trying to play it.

I am basically done with the map, I don't really have time to add tons of detail. This is a uni project where I have about 2 weeks to finish the map and an 8000 word report.

edit: final now yeahhh. at least thats 1 contest entry confirmed.

please read

For clarity: I made this for a university project - not for the contest. The contest deadline coincided with the uni deadline, so I figured I may as well submit it. I got a first for the project - it's finished - I'm happy.

 

[grazr]

I thought you would like to know this information so that you might release a better version in future. Being "finished" is either arragonce or laziness; such a term does not truely exist in this industry. If a map needs fixing it needs fixing whether you like it or not.

If your map can be improved but you just refuse to do it... It's simply a shame and will smack of abandonment more than anything else. Just because you submitted your project to the contest and/or uni does not mean you cannot continue to improve on what's there for the general public. You think the authors of hoodoo_final or egypt_final didn't update their maps at a later date with improved versions? I thought you would like to know this information so that you might release a better version in future. Many people would kill for this kind of feedback, i'd have thought you'd have been a little more appreciative.

P.S. It's my personal opinion that if you're happy with a product you've released to the public even though the public aren't happy with it then you've failed as both a designer and artist. I'm a little disappointed by the "don't give a shit" attitude, but that's your perogative i suppose; congratulations on your grade and goodluck in the contest.

 

[honeymustard]

The thing is though it was never made for the public. The feedback is all nice and dandy, but I made this for a specific purpose - which is done.

 

[Sergis]

IMO no map should ever be "final", because you'll always find things to change.

Thats exactly the reason for having a "final" map. Without a deadline/endpoint/development freeze point you'll be tinkering with the map for eternity.

 

[Wilson]

Thats exactly the reason for having a "final" map. Without a deadline/endpoint/development freeze point you'll be tinkering with the map for eternity.

That is silly logic Sergis, you can call it a day for map without using final tag on the map name.

 

[honeymustard]

Thats exactly the reason for having a "final" map. Without a deadline/endpoint/development freeze point you'll be tinkering with the map for eternity.

Exactly - the point was to have a finished map for the deadline of May 6th.

 

[Sergis]

That is silly logic Sergis, you can call it a day for map without using final tag on the map name.

I see nothing wrong with using final tag on a de facto final map.

 

[LeSwordfish]

Congratulations on your university work.

 

[tyler]

The thing is though it was never made for the public. The feedback is all nice and dandy, but I made this for a specific purpose - which is done.

I understand, but that is disappointing.

 

[Pocket]

You think the authors of hoodoo_final or egypt_final didn't update their maps at a later date with improved versions?

Did Heyo update Egypt? Because he sure won't anymore.

 

[grazr]

The thing is though it was never made for the public.

But that just doesn't make any sense to me. Level design is about producing a product for "public" clients and to ascertain its worth/value it needs to be distributed to the public and used by the public and compared to other public material. It's like designing an adventure playground that's impractical and dangerous and then denying the opportunity to modify it so that kids can actually play in it.

I can't relate to that way of thinking.

Most people's motivation in level design is to produce a high quality result that is adored and enjoyed by many. It just makes me wonder why you're here, you've produced a map for the artpass, one public domain map and then this and you're trying to tell me you don't give a shit about the final quality of your map, what people think of it or if people even want to play it because it's served another purpose.

I'm not trying to argue, i'm just surprised (and as yyler said, disappointed).

 

[Fruity Snacks]

I'm trying to wrap my head around why people are argueing about it?

Its his map he made for a school project, but it fit within the contest guidelines, so he posted it. I mean, if it was made for a school project, then it was made for school... not the public, the contest was just added for fun and maybe a jab at winning.

What honeymustard is doing, I don't see as stupid or idiotic. I see it as a little disappointing that it won't go further, but I'm not questioning his motives as a mapper.

EDIT: at steve, iirc it was updated slightly once? I may have it confused with another map.
EDIT 2: Also, iirc nightfalls file name is plr_nightfall_final. using final to me is fine if your done with it.

 

[grazr]

...EDIT 2: Also, iirc nightfalls file name is plr_nightfall_final. using final to me is fine if your done with it.

Going final when Valve buys it is fine because steam will update the contents for both servers and clients and the file name will not have to change. In the public domain however it is different, versions will differ on servers and clients depending whether they downloaded the older or newer version. IE If his original "final" map was uploaded to the servers we would have to delete it and reupload it and all the clients who got the original would not be able to join our server; they'd also have to delete it and get the new version.

P.S. nobody said what he was doing was stupid or idiotic. People just aren't used to half tested beta's suddenly going final. Since people understand that most of the time a map is made for "them" even if their is a personal goal or experiment behind it on the authors part, it's shocking when a maps development suddenly stops.

EDIT: If you're interested, ctf_sabotage was an experiment on my part in combination with a university third year dissertation, even after handing it in i had every intention of improving upon it after both submitting it to the contest and to university because i actually want people to enjoy playing on something i produced as opposed to having a half balanced half detailed map in my portfolio. Maybe that will explain my feelings on the matter.

and we're not really argueing. I gave him some feedback, he doesn't want it, i asked him why, he said he's just not interested in this project anymore and i said i wont understand that approach to level design.

 

[honeymustard]

Arguing about updating the _final version is stupid, there was an areaportal bug which appeared in powderhorn_final but not teddy_final (despite that part of the vmf being identical), so I had to fix it (or I would have lost technical marks, or whatever, but I guess that was futile ), and didn't feel like calling it _final1 just for that. Besides, no one had downloaded the original _final or used it on a server at that point.