tc_hydro study
- Thread starter fubarFX
- Start date
is this the mentioned idea that only loses one route?
My only objection to this is, it looks as if it loses a lot from the idea of neutral terriotory that TC is built around.
My only objection to this is, it looks as if it loses a lot from the idea of neutral terriotory that TC is built around.
I don't see how, it still has the four neutral areas in the centre with the two team coloured bases separated to the sides of the map.
The only difference is they're slightly offset, provided the mapper retains the neutrality of each area, the player will hardly notice the fact it isn't as square.
I'm not even sure you can say tc is built around neutral territories since the goal with hydro was to provide as much variation as possible in one map, they knew that players only play a small core set of maps over and over, so they hoped to push as much variation into that as possible with hydro (plays different every time). The only reason the points are neutral is because either team can own them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imeSa4AyRug
It would help if a winning team could gain an advantage when they start to make progress. The thing with TC rounds is that they all too easily get reset back to square 1 if an assault fails. Like lengthening the defending teams spawn wave, or decreasing the attackers when they begin to capture the respective points. I would love to try out some I/O logic that involves onstartcap>changespawnwave @ tf_gamerules but i have no idea if that would actually work, i believe the difficulty lies in resetting the values when the point resets. I don't imagine there's much value in simply allowing faster/longer respawns for the 2 or 3 seconds an attacker spends on the point before it is defended or ninja captured.
Ever since people have started to realise how stalemate-y hydro can be there's been a lot of call for CTF style TC and KoTH style TC in an effort to negate resetting progress back to square 1 simply because it's so easy to win a battle of attrition when you're defending.
My main gripe with hydro (as much as i do like it) is that regardless of the amount of routes that exist, they are all so small. Flanking doesn't have to just occur on a seperate route, it can occur within larger spaces too. This is what's nice about Coldfront's middle, badwaters start and sawmill in general, and so bad about dustbowl's last point, goldrush's 1st-2nd choke and 2fort's corridors.
Having tight chokes is fine but when teams are fighting a linear battle, head to head, progress is very hard to make, and very easy to lose.
Ever since people have started to realise how stalemate-y hydro can be there's been a lot of call for CTF style TC and KoTH style TC in an effort to negate resetting progress back to square 1 simply because it's so easy to win a battle of attrition when you're defending.
My main gripe with hydro (as much as i do like it) is that regardless of the amount of routes that exist, they are all so small. Flanking doesn't have to just occur on a seperate route, it can occur within larger spaces too. This is what's nice about Coldfront's middle, badwaters start and sawmill in general, and so bad about dustbowl's last point, goldrush's 1st-2nd choke and 2fort's corridors.
Having tight chokes is fine but when teams are fighting a linear battle, head to head, progress is very hard to make, and very easy to lose.
Last edited:
Icarus
aa
- Sep 10, 2008
- 2,245
- 1,210
Does anyone here play Hydro!? It's been like this for months. The decay rate on captures are also incredibly slow. Much, MUCH longer than 2-3 seconds: They can last up to a whole minute, and it reduces spawn times by 70%.
Seriously, play some Hydro.
My other idea for TC thats been in my head is making the points hard-to-defend positions- using all the tricks of the trade- health, height, routes,- to make the CENTER of each round easily defensible, and the individual points harder. Hopefully more combat will take place in the centre, and it'll be more decisive.
Does that sound good in theory?
Does that sound good in theory?
Loc_n_lol
aa
- Apr 13, 2009
- 728
- 309
Does that sound like a good idea ?
Basically, 8 control points, 3 per round, 4 are shared among 2 rounds, the other 4 are round specific.
The good thing is each round plays like a linear 3-CP push, so you can adjust respawn timers depending on who owns mid. And the first round played doesn't have to be X-Y (since there are no bases), it could be any round. And each round is much easier to balance individually.
The bad thing is there are only 4 possible rounds and only half the content gets reused.
Basically, 8 control points, 3 per round, 4 are shared among 2 rounds, the other 4 are round specific.
The good thing is each round plays like a linear 3-CP push, so you can adjust respawn timers depending on who owns mid. And the first round played doesn't have to be X-Y (since there are no bases), it could be any round. And each round is much easier to balance individually.
The bad thing is there are only 4 possible rounds and only half the content gets reused.
Bumping, because this is a great analysis of Hydro and the problems it has, and I believe that something could still come out of this.
The only thing that I can add to the discussion is this--if Hydro is ever to achieve fair balance, then it needs to be ridded of the 1 route and 2 route sections.
The only thing that I can add to the discussion is this--if Hydro is ever to achieve fair balance, then it needs to be ridded of the 1 route and 2 route sections.
Something did come out of this, YM's tc_strata, it's uses Ardy's proposed idea of cutting out one of the diagonal rounds
Since this is up again.
I made some experiments involving tc and koth earlier this month.
The cap layout is the same as hydro, one cp per area, 2 cps in play every round.
I implemented the two koth timers and set the timer to 1:00 minute. Your clock will only count down while your team owns both cps. The capture time is 0.5 seconds (translates to 1 sec cap time for non-scouts)
If each team owns 1 cp, neither clock counts down.
For final rounds, unlike regular hydro logic, the defenders can cap the attackers point, and as you'd expect this is how you'd succeed in "defending" the round.
Attackers only need to own both points for a accumulated period of 20 seconds though, while defenders still need the full minute.
I tried many ways to just have 1 cp enabled in the last round, and more or less have it be regular koth, but where the defenders clock started ticking automatically on roundstart (and was set to like 2-3 min) but it just kept crashing, gave up after many hours because I couldn't be arsed to look further into it.
So what does this solve? No idea, I just wanted to build a multi-cp koth thing, which was surprisingly easy.
Maybe the unexciting rounds where both teams just run past each other and races to see who captures first.
The layouts would have to be built to favor attacking, heavily. If it's too turtle friendly a round could go on for hours theoretically, as there is no third 'round' timer in koth. I doubt it would work using hydro and just swap the game ents. It's too easy to defend on that map.
I made some experiments involving tc and koth earlier this month.
The cap layout is the same as hydro, one cp per area, 2 cps in play every round.
I implemented the two koth timers and set the timer to 1:00 minute. Your clock will only count down while your team owns both cps. The capture time is 0.5 seconds (translates to 1 sec cap time for non-scouts)
If each team owns 1 cp, neither clock counts down.
For final rounds, unlike regular hydro logic, the defenders can cap the attackers point, and as you'd expect this is how you'd succeed in "defending" the round.
Attackers only need to own both points for a accumulated period of 20 seconds though, while defenders still need the full minute.
I tried many ways to just have 1 cp enabled in the last round, and more or less have it be regular koth, but where the defenders clock started ticking automatically on roundstart (and was set to like 2-3 min) but it just kept crashing, gave up after many hours because I couldn't be arsed to look further into it.
So what does this solve? No idea, I just wanted to build a multi-cp koth thing, which was surprisingly easy.
Maybe the unexciting rounds where both teams just run past each other and races to see who captures first.
The layouts would have to be built to favor attacking, heavily. If it's too turtle friendly a round could go on for hours theoretically, as there is no third 'round' timer in koth. I doubt it would work using hydro and just swap the game ents. It's too easy to defend on that map.
I was more going for changes to Hydro, not a new map. Like turbine_pro. Trying to make the map more balanced and/or more geared toward competitive play.
English Mobster
L6: Sharp Member
- Jul 10, 2011
- 355
- 299
Just want to put this out here:
I REALLY like that central point idea that intersects all the diagonal routes. It could perhaps even double as a "neutral" point that could turn every round into a 3-CP push without violating the 8 CP limit.
I REALLY like that central point idea that intersects all the diagonal routes. It could perhaps even double as a "neutral" point that could turn every round into a 3-CP push without violating the 8 CP limit.
I tried multiple times to do the 1 central point idea. Horrible, horrible disaster. It'd need someone to warp time and space to do it.
