Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by Nutomic, Aug 22, 2010.
"Hey Valve! Do even more work for the community you already look after very well."
Seriously, Valve do a better job of working with and for their community than most other developers can ever dream of. It never fails to amaze me how people always find something to complain about. Yes their tools aren't perfect but afaik they're pretty much the same tools they have to work with and they're also better than the tools that most developers provide post release, e.g. none.
Besides, petitioning developer's is such bull. If you have a reasonable request that would benefit the community and Valve you'd probably get a better response if you got a few influential community members to just send them an email.
No offence intended Nutomic, I know you didn't write this. I just think there's really very little to complain about on this front. Find a bug, find a work-around and deal with it.
I was trying to think of a way to say what Boylee just said.
"Fallen behind the industry standard"? Despite making TF2, Ep2, L4D/2 and many other amazing games which are at the front of the gaming world with these tools, they're still not good enough? What, because it doesn't give you real time lighting in the editor?
I agree with the point about an update breaking a mod, i've experienced this before, but that's what Perforce is there for :/
The deadline for the letter being sent will be 1st September, after being carefully adjusted for Valve Time.
Please note that this is not a list of bugs to be fixed, (post those at VDC Category:Feedback), neither is it a list of demands; these are all suggestions, some more feasible than others.
We need descriptions of specific workflow, content creation and usability problems - problems that are generally not present among the Source SDK's competitors.
Please comment with your suggestions and improvements, and this post will be updated accordingly.
Added release of in-game tools code suggested by Varsity
Added OS'ing SDK tools based on suggestions by saxon, & .eXeC!, coder for the newly released Nightmare House 2 [Removed]
Altered wording from "We request" to "We suggest", removed more documentation suggestion for reasons mentioned here
Corrected spelling mistake, added sub-bulletpoints for workflow improvement suggestions and Hammer plugin ability, thanks vcool
Changed "Unreal" to "Epic Games", removed open-sourcing of SDK tools suggestion, thanks MáØ
Incorporated changes made by Major Banter to wording and structure
We're well aware of Valve's fantastic community relations, and the last thing we want is for this to be seen as selfish and an abuse of Valve's generosity.
These are not petulant demands, but serious and well-discussed suggestions proposed to help remedy problems which do exist.
Valve does, at least indirectly, profit from releasing the SDK to us - the ability to create custom content for Valve's games has hugely increased their longevity and promoted brand loyalty, from HL1 onwards.
Valve has stated they request feedback on their tools:
Petitioning is not bull when your developer happens to be Valve Software - and the implication that Valve is more likely to listen were this to happen by getting "a few influential community members to just send them an email" is objectionable, to say the least.
You do know there's an edit button, right?
I downloaded UnrealEd a while back to see if it really was a superior engine like everyone says. It broke my brain. And YouTube was no help either; all the tutorials were for the old version before they totally redid everything... or the version before that before they totally redid everything the first time. For all I like to say that Hammer needs a complete overhaul, that's probably not a great idea in practice.
Source SDK, Unreal Editor, Crytek SDK, they're all so far above the "industry standard" it's ridiculous. Comparing the pros and cons between them is just splitting hairs.
I agree with the idea of upgrading/fixing the source SDK, but valve's not going to do it because a bunch of people on the internet told them to. If you could get a few programmers and the like on board and do it for them, you'd be fine.
But I agree with having some more transparency witht he tool. It's hardly going to be pirated.
I *hope* Valve don't update the SDK we have right now, be it for TF2, HL2 or whatever, but release a new Source Engine with the release of Portal 2, Ep3 and whatever else. I think Valve should concentrate less on upgrading what we have and more on what we might get.
Now that you've explained it, I see your intentions more, and I also see the problem. Online petitions are notorious for being frivolous and useless. Petitions in general are something used to force a change when it otherwise would not happen. I suggest you should strip any and all uses of the word "petition" from your endeavor. That would make it seem far less "assholeish" and remove the knee-jerk reaction people have to the word.
Unreal is the hardest to use editor ever.
At least SDK has WASD and mouselook
I think we can all enjoy an SDK update when Ep3/Portal 2 is released.
We are after all dealing with decade old technology that only recently saw an engine update for L4D2's release.
When things get old it's only natural that other, newer engines out perform it in most regards. Including the efficiency and power of the authoring tools.
I'm not trying to excuse the SDK's short falls, Valve will always appreciate community feedback. But Petitions don't really add any extra weight to an argument of this nature. Valve are very capable of acknowledging mistakes or errors when they are braught to attention. Whether it be from established community members like Drunken F00l, some ambiguous SPUF forum goer or 1000 bleeting sheep.
Honestly it's silly to compare the engine and tools of a company devoted to making great games using their own setup to the engine and tools of a company that makes millions licensing their technology.
Fair enough, in which case why not compile a feedback and requests dossier? I wasn't trying to take a shit on your parade, I think it was the word 'petition' that sparked the rant. I would seriously recommend removing the word petition from this project as so many people instantly see it and go "ugh, not another internet petition."
Just because it's objectionable doesn't make it any less true. If you've talked to someone inside Valve before then you're much more likely to be able to initiate a proper discussion with them about this. Chances are if you've talked to someone inside Valve before then you've contributed in some way before and therefore, are an influential community member. It wasn't meant to be an elitist comment, I've emailed Valve before and got no response, I was just trying to say that a spokesperson that they know might help more than a mass petition.
So why are you being so blunt about this whole thing? It sounds like you're going to blow up a hospital if they don't listen to you. Send them a damn e-mail and they will handle it whenever possible. The more e-mails that are sent in the more urgent the problem is seen as.
Nineaxis of nodraw.net? I like what's going on at Nodraw, there's some great tutorials.
Valve may be devoted to making great games, but the Source engine is available to license, putting it on equal footing with any other game engine on the market.
What's up with the "blowing up a damn hospital" stuff!?
The letter was started on the 20th, and feedback was requested in order to improve it. Based upon feedback received, the letter has changed significantly since Nutomic quoted it here! I rather wish he would update his post, as people just don't seem to be reading beyond it.
This is not in the least attempting to force Valve's hand, we have a relaxed attitude, and these are suggestions, not demands or even requests.
My earlier post has always been updated as the letter changes from suggestions in other places, can people not scroll down a just little and read it?
Why don't you just send in e-mails and ask your friends to send in e-mails too?
It has already been suggested, but was deemed unecessary, as the size and serious nature of the group can be determined without having to rely upon spamming Gabe's inbox to get results.
It has been proposed to bulk email Valve were the public letter to fail, so I think it's possible we'll go with that if needs be.
Yeah spamming them with the same request was never likely to engender a favourable reaction.
Separate names with a comma.