Slush

CP Slush b1

Moose

L6: Sharp Member
Nov 4, 2009
312
616
I detailed stage 2. Slush b0 is now available for download, the biggest thing it's missing is a 3D sky.

2011-05-14_00008.jpg


2011-05-14_00009.jpg


2011-05-14_00010.jpg
 

Rexy

The Kwisatz Haderach
aa
Dec 22, 2008
1,798
2,533
I had fun and thought the detail was well executed. Just a few gameplay issues due to detailing, like the see-though stairs at the first capture area. It's great work so far.
 

waxpax

L5: Dapper Member
Feb 25, 2011
238
151
http://www.mediafire.com/?ujma3l74y633y5t
http://www.mediafire.com/?0d4d9m5uqiqq2kb

We pugged s2_a3 earlier tonight. Seemed really hard to take some points, but that might have just been because it was the first time we ever played the map. Second stv in just the second stage of the map, both teams threw the first stage to get to the second since when we played the first half, we couldn't manage to take 1-2.

Somethings I noticed from the pug, not sure if you fixed them in b0 or not:

You were missing some cube maps in blu's spawn in stage one, there's a square on both walls.
tx8O6.jpg


I would really like to be able to jump on top of this "shed"
88gU9.jpg


There's a spot in the center of these boards that you can fall through, I don't think you intended that. You might have to be a soldier to fall through, I don't know, as medic I couldn't find the spot, my pocket found it and was able to fall through multiple times, though.
PNMxb.jpg


Oh, it was really hard for some people to realize that 1-2 was behind them, even with me yelling that the point would be behind us when we pushed, people couldn't really figure it out. I think it's just because it's a unique geometry, though, so, yeah, that first round on offense was a little weird.
 

Moose

L6: Sharp Member
Nov 4, 2009
312
616
We pugged s2_a3 earlier tonight. ...

Thanks for the post.

I've changed up a lot of stuff since a3, and each of those issues you mentioned have been fixed in b0 (Although I just made that shed taller to indicate that you can't rj onto it). I put up a bunch of signs by 1-2, so hopefully nobody will feel too confused about that any more.
 

evanonline

L420: High Member
Mar 15, 2009
485
273
This was my first time playing tonight. It seemed pretty fun! I can't comment on the gameplay much because the teams seemed pretty uneven, but it seems very promising.
 

grazr

Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle
aa
Mar 4, 2008
5,441
3,814
A major over use of the metal beam texture. I'd recommend using the second one in more places, especially your spytech areas where the 2 dark grey lines running down its length stick out like a sore thumb.

Your outside details are lovely though. No over saturation of props and the wall textures repeat a perfectly reasonable amount (what would be considered realistic).
 
Last edited:

waxpax

L5: Dapper Member
Feb 25, 2011
238
151
LdFL3.jpg


Can you make it so you can jump over these catwalks on 1-1? I guess you don't want to give height advantage at that point, but if you're a soldier and you're between the catwalks for some reason, you really can't get out of that area quickly since you run into invisible walls as soon as you jump. Or, maybe just get rid of them?

I still think some of the points might be too hard to attack, but that could really just be a side effect of the pug and the fact that ad maps are the hardest maps to pug since they take a fair bit of coordination and, if it's the first time you've ever seen a map before and never played with anyone in the pug before, that level of coordination can be difficult to pull off.
 

tyler

aa
Sep 11, 2013
5,102
4,621
I do think cp 1-2 could be easier. It kinda has this problem where you need to have played the map a couple times before you really understand how to take it and before that it's frustrating. What's going to happen is people will play it once, hate it, and pronounce it bad, when it really is a great map. Some combination of visibility and captureability need to be changed; I think someone said to put it in front of the glass at red spawn and they might be on to something there. Just a thought.
 

Moose

L6: Sharp Member
Nov 4, 2009
312
616
I enjoyed playing Slush yesterday. I don't think Stage 1 cp 2 has really any issues, you have the signs there, so it seems obvious what to do.

Detailing is great, minus that one spawn room that looks like a prisons shower (red stage 1 spawn).

Yeah, I need more detail in red spawns for both stage 1 and 2

Can you make it so you can jump over these catwalks on 1-1? I guess you don't want to give height advantage at that point, but if you're a soldier and you're between the catwalks for some reason, you really can't get out of that area quickly since you run into invisible walls as soon as you jump. Or, maybe just get rid of them?

I still think some of the points might be too hard to attack, but that could really just be a side effect of the pug and the fact that ad maps are the hardest maps to pug since they take a fair bit of coordination and, if it's the first time you've ever seen a map before and never played with anyone in the pug before, that level of coordination can be difficult to pull off.

I don't really know what to do with those catwalks, and I really like them. I'm beginning to think that I might as well just let people jump on top of them, but we'll see.

I do think cp 1-2 could be easier. It kinda has this problem where you need to have played the map a couple times before you really understand how to take it and before that it's frustrating. What's going to happen is people will play it once, hate it, and pronounce it bad, when it really is a great map. Some combination of visibility and captureability need to be changed; I think someone said to put it in front of the glass at red spawn and they might be on to something there. Just a thought.

Cp 1-2 is my favorite point in my map. I feel like it has the most original layout, and it has the potential for amazing rounds. In fact, just last night there was an intense fight that ended with red just barely holding blu off until 50 seconds were left on the timer. I feel like the issue here, other than the initial confusion about the point's location, is that this layout is just unforgiving on blu. If teams are heavily uneven and there isn't any kind of coordination whatsoever, blu will feel it more than they would on other maps. However, I also think that this could be a positive thing, because the more people get used to attacking 1-2, the more they'll come to understand how to approach it correctly and organize themselves effectively.

As for moving the point, I assume the idea would be to move it lower and closer to red spawn. I tried to do this during early development in my map, and it did not work at all. Red was able to hold the point easily, and attacking felt totally impossible no matter what you did. I'll admit that I didn't have the bridge back then, but I still feel like it would end up being much less fun than it currently is.
 

Moose

L6: Sharp Member
Nov 4, 2009
312
616
I went ahead and got rid of those catwalk clips, and I'm working on a 3D sky plus some extra detailing. Just fyi.

Also, I wanted to take a little time to try and explain why I'm so hesitant to change anything about my map's layout at this point. I think the best way to do this is with some statistics and reasoning, so here goes.

First of all, and I think this is the most compelling argument I can make, the red/blu win ratio is exactly even. I've checked this ratio after each b0 test so far, and every time it's ended up being exactly the same. There have been 32 rounds on b0, and 6 of those have either a very low playercount or no players at all. Disregarding those rounds still leaves me with 13 red wins and 13 blu wins.

I'm not trying to say that 32 rounds is enough testing to be totally certain that balance is perfect, but I don't exactly have months to gather as much data as I can before this contest ends. I don't want to make any layout changes that could end up causing problems, especially when things already seem pretty good as they are.

You could argue that the stages themselves are unbalanced, even if the map is balanced overall. I'm a lot more worried about this, but so far, out of 28 populated rounds (17 of which are on the first stage), stage 1 has only been defended 5 times. Stage 2 is about even with 5 blu wins and 6 losses. I'm pretty happy with these results, since it means stage 1 is only defended about 1/3 of the time, and stage 2 seems pretty fair for both teams.

Again, I realize that 32 rounds isn't really enough to be certain of balance, but I think it's enough to prove that nothing is horribly wrong.

EDIT: Playstuff did a test earlier today, added another 6 rounds to the total. Blu won all but one round, bringing the total to 17 red wins and 21 blu wins. None of the rounds had more than 10 players, and most of them were new to the map, so the issue could easily have been something unrelated to the layout. It changed the ratio some, though.
 
Last edited:

grazr

Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle
aa
Mar 4, 2008
5,441
3,814
One of the things i think you should be aware of is that at this CP: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3494096/2011-05-14_00010.jpg Demo's can cycle through the spawn room+locker cabinet to increase their rate of fire double/triple fold. By the time it takes to reload 2-3 grenades/stickies i can get to the locker which means rather than just being able to reload my grenade launcher i can spam 8 stickies and not have to reload the sticky launcher at all and then spam 8 more.

Dunno whether you wanna move the cabinet back more, it's a toughy because the locker is actually a reasonable distance from the CP for things like healing burning players who came from defending right on it. It's just that the demoman has a direct line of fire onto the point that's perfect given the stickies default shot distance and grenade arch over the steps onto the point.

It's also fairly difficult for spy's to get behind here because of the walls. As demoman i was pretty secluded and could only take fire from the front. Whilst spy's successfully got through to the sentries they couldn't really deal any significant impact on the demos/soldiers due to the linearity of combat at the point.
 
Last edited:

waxpax

L5: Dapper Member
Feb 25, 2011
238
151
http://www.mediafire.com/?h0km6c8332e5kc5

stv from tonight's pug. i didn't play as my computer died on me recently, but i've pasted the criticism stalin gave me from the pug below:

cp_slush_b0:

- Stage 1, Point 1 acts exactly like Gpit A. Must be given up in order to successfully hold B.
- Stage 1, Point 2 is extrememy hard to cap. Four easy-to-focus chokepoints, can be shut down with any of the combat classes or utilities
- Stage 2, Point 1 allows the defending team to go into the attackers spawn and kill them as they walk out of locked off spawn
- Stage 2, Point 2 is literally impossible to cap with less than 12 people, defendable with a grand total of 6 people
- Stage 2 should either be more linear (actual line to the point with one flank from that linear path) or have a forward spawn
 

Moose

L6: Sharp Member
Nov 4, 2009
312
616
http://www.mediafire.com/?h0km6c8332e5kc5

stv from tonight's pug. i didn't play as my computer died on me recently, but i've pasted the criticism stalin gave me from the pug below:
...

Each of those things is a good complaint, and actually I've decided to focus on widening parts of the map to make it a bit more open in the future, but I don't want to mess with balance too much.

Slush is still perfectly balanced between red and blu, with both teams winning about half of the time. Both rounds, and each point on the map, are played enough that I'm happy with each individual point's difficulty. Even 1-1 has seen a couple of defenses, even though they're really rare.

I don't like to run around telling everybody that my map is perfectly balanced all the time, but I'm worried that judges will disregard overall statistics, and base their opinion on a gut feeling after a couple of rounds. I've seen too many great maps misrepresented in the past, and the same thing could easily happen right now to any map in the contest.
 
Last edited:

Tyker

L5: Dapper Member
Jun 1, 2009
232
142
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1641307/Maps/Feedback/slush/cp_slush_b10011.jpg
I really like these borders!

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1641307/Maps/Feedback/slush/cp_slush_b10012.jpg
The normal map on these textures seem a bit too deep/strong. It's very, very bright in some places.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1641307/Maps/Feedback/slush/cp_slush_b10013.jpg
Maybe open up this window to get rid of the great sentry position in the picture. It seemed a bit too overpowered when we played it.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1641307/Maps/Feedback/slush/cp_slush_b10014.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1641307/Maps/Feedback/slush/cp_slush_b10019.jpg
Ramps do not look good on a 1x1 angle, you could make it 1x1.25 or more to make it look better.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1641307/Maps/Feedback/slush/cp_slush_b10015.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1641307/Maps/Feedback/slush/cp_slush_b10016.jpg
These buildings could use some windows or other detail.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1641307/Maps/Feedback/slush/cp_slush_b10017.jpg
This building too, but it also needs different textures.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1641307/Maps/Feedback/slush/cp_slush_b10018.jpg
This would look a lot more interesting if they were turned the other way.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1641307/Maps/Feedback/slush/cp_slush_b10020.jpg
It is possible to see through if you stand on top of the consoles in front of the window.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1641307/Maps/Feedback/slush/cp_slush_b10022.jpg
What are these two big things for? They do not seem to serve any actual purpose, it looks kinda weird.

The last CPs brushwork looks really nice too!