sevin's First PC Build!

seth

aa
May 31, 2013
1,019
851
I appreciate everyone's input so far, it's been very helpful!

Muffin, I plan on assembling myself, but the only cues I have are from what I've read and watched online in the past couple of days. Judging by those however, it doesn't seem like something I would need to outsource to someone who could do it better; I could probably figure it out just fine.

Also, I do plan on buying the parts soon, but I need to figure out how I'm going to transfer my current Mac data and Win7 data to this new Win8 machine and actually sell it before I can buy the parts.

I should also mention that I do plan on overclocking, that's partially why I opted for a K processor and an upgraded heatsink. Like I've said before, I have very limited experience with this stuff so it'll be a very modest overclock since those videos and articles I've read scare me a little, but there appear to be no real consequences if the CPU is kept properly cooled and powered so there's no reason not to.

Oh, and I've added a mouse to the build as my DeathAdder is rather old, one of the side buttons has caved in and I just hate dealing with Synapse.

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel Core i5-4690K 3.5GHz Quad-Core Processor ($212.99 @ NCIX US)
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO 82.9 CFM Sleeve Bearing CPU Cooler ($26.75 @ OutletPC)
Motherboard: Asus Z97-A ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($145.98 @ Newegg)
Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws X Series 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR3-1866 Memory ($129.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Samsung 840 EVO 250GB 2.5" Solid State Drive ($114.99 @ Amazon)
Storage: Western Digital Caviar Blue 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($51.85 @ OutletPC)
Video Card: Asus GeForce GTX 760 2GB DirectCU II Video Card ($192.98 @ Newegg)
Case: Antec P100 ATX Mid Tower Case ($59.99 @ Directron)
Power Supply: Corsair CSM 450W 80+ Gold Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply ($26.99 @ Newegg)
Optical Drive: Asus DRW-24B1ST/BLK/B/AS DVD/CD Writer ($18.75 @ OutletPC)
Operating System: Microsoft Windows 8.1 (OEM) (64-bit) ($89.98 @ OutletPC)
Mouse: Mionix AVIOR 7000 Wired Optical Mouse ($49.99 @ NCIX US)
Total: $1095.23
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-12-27 11:07 EST-0500

Still checking out cases. I can get both full and mid ATX cases with my setup right?
 
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InstantMuffin

L2: Junior Member
May 26, 2014
64
48
Seems very non-certain at that point. You might be ready for a purchase next week, maybe it'll be delayed by two months.
I'd say don't ask for any configuration now that might have to be changed whenever it is you can actually buy stuff.

I'm sorry that I haven't asked this question sooner, there were quite a few hints.
 

DonutVikingChap

L5: Dapper Member
Mar 15, 2013
233
139
I don't intend to start anything (I'm not going to quote your first reply on this one actually to return the volley).
I fully agree with the power supply, you forgot that he started out with a 700W set and a 760. You should keep that in mind.
As far as GPU manufacturer's special features go, they're all highly subjective (as you have noticed as well - "I think..." "I find...") and don't have any general advantage, if any. I'm not interested in following this all the way through as none of these things are actually what sevin is looking out for and it's what every regular poster in a forum dedicated to pc configurations would tell you as well, so I'm going to leave that lesson out. I'd just like to note that you're listing is a very biased evaluation as it doesn't contain any AMD-only feature. (Most of them are fair-and-square opensource-standards pushed by AMD, but there's still some exclusive stuff as you should know)
I also don't see the cooler thing as a hassle, I see your proposal as money pre-invested to an extent that it might not even be needed and therefore be a waste of money. However I'm not interested in arguing with someone random on some cpu cooler. And yes, you can even do some overclocking with a boxed cooler. They're not that bad anymore. Plus, undervolting plus moderate overclocking is very possible so you might even end up with the same or lower thermal output.

What I recommend:
-Sevin, ask around on forums dedicated to your question. You've got a sneakpeek of different opinions here, now it's time to verify what you've heard in an environment where these questions are being asked on a minute-basis, before you do a final purchase
-Sevin, can you actually assemble a computer? Have you done that before? If not, can someone do it for you?
-Shame on me for asking this question now and not earlier, but are you actually going to do a purchase now (in the following two weeks) or later (maybe in two months)? In the latter case this is a waste of time then, you should come back when you're ready for the purchase.

I didn't know he started with a 700W power supply as I hadn't seen this thread until I made my first reply. (But that's still not too much.)

As for GPU features, I stated several objective facts (that are by most considered as advantages) such as wider support and longer development time for some features. I said "I think" CUDA was the most dominant in this case, because I wasn't sure whether I was factually correct or not, not because it was a subjective opinion (which it isn't, since one is obviously more dominant across a certain usage scenario). Whether HD3D or 3D Surround is better isn't really "subjective" either, rather it varies, since it mostly depends on what games you play.

Most importantly, it's not like subjective opinions don't matter. Especially when you have done a lot of research about these features and have used several of them.

The reason I recommend Nvidia is because I have a lot of experience with their graphics cards and newer features, and I know they work great for someone who does the things sevin say. Having done a lot of research and staying up to date with AMD cards & features simultaneously, I can also say that the things that set their cards apart would work better for a different use case scenario, since their strong point is the price-to-performance ratio.

It's not like I'm getting paid by Nvidia to endorse their products, I do a lot of source evaluation while being very open-minded about this kind of stuff, so when I think a product is better than another one, it's not because I'm a "fanboy" or because my friends use it. I'll happily change sides if AMD starts to deliver the same kind of features as Nvidia does, but to this point I haven't found it compelling. Basically, Nvidia's features are things I'd miss being without, while AMD's are not.

(And the boxed cooler will definitely not do for any [read: significant] overclocking. I've used the thing several times and seen the bloody results.)

Oh, and I've added a mouse to the build as my DeathAdder is rather old, one of the side buttons has caved in and I just hate dealing with Synapse.
I personally love my DeathAdder 2013, but if you want a new one I definitely don't reccomend the one you chose. There is a very limited list of mice I'd buy that actually have "flawless" optical sensors, among them being the Logitech G502 Proteus Core, for example.

Still checking out cases. I can get both full and mid ATX cases with my setup right?
Absolutely, as long as it's ATX and not mATX (Micro ATX).
 

DonutVikingChap

L5: Dapper Member
Mar 15, 2013
233
139
What about a micro ATX motherboard? That seems like my best option for shaving off a good chunk of money for a better case.

Yes, that is a good idea since you don't need an entire ATX motherboard for just one graphics card.

The mATX equivalent of that motherboard would be the ASUS Z97M-PLUS, which is great.

For mATX cases, here are some recommendations:

Fractal Design Arc Mini R2
Fractal Design Define Mini
Corsair Obsidian 350D
Phanteks Enthoo Evolv
BitFenix Prodigy M

Most of the computers I build are actually mATX. Out of the ~8 computers I have built, two were in the Arc Mini R2, two were in the Define Mini and one was in the 350D. My favorite is the Arc Mini R2 but the best looking in my opinion is the 350D.
 

InstantMuffin

L2: Junior Member
May 26, 2014
64
48
I didn't know he started with a 700W power supply as I hadn't seen this thread until I made my first reply. (But that's still not too much.)[...}

Yeah, editing kind of kills the history of this.

As for GPU features, I stated several objective facts (that are by most considered as advantages) such as wider support and longer development time for some features.[...]

First part of this sentence is a typical empty phrase, I've already answered to that earlier, second part is just wtf. Most of the "features" (most of them are open but AMD focusses on them significantly so support is evident) are open source. It basically outruns anything proprietary in terms of support and potential development time. Also, again, it's an empty phrase as long as there's not a list of manpower * time on that. Note: Nothing personal, but it's not an argument if it's just some empty phrase, especially with nothing to back it up.

[...]I said "I think" CUDA was the most dominant in this case, because I wasn't sure whether I was factually correct or not, not because it was a subjective opinion (which it isn't, since one is obviously more dominant across a certain usage scenario).[...} Whether HD3D or 3D Surround is better isn't really "subjective" either, rather it varies, since it mostly depends on what games you play.[...]
][...]The reason I recommend Nvidia is because I have a lot of experience with their graphics cards and newer features, and I know they work great for someone who does the things sevin say.[...]

Okay.
So, first off, CUDA and OpenCL are equally fast:
http://wiki.tiker.net/CudaVsOpenCL#Speed

Second, his usage scenarios:

"photoshop": Mercury engine supports both CUDA and OpenCL
"video editing": Sony Vegas supports OpenCL acceleration (as a matter of fact I'm using it)
"eventually 3d modelling":
-Blender: Yes
-3dsmax: Yes
-Maya: Yes

[...]Most importantly, it's not like subjective opinions don't matter. Especially when you have done a lot of research about these features and have used several of them.[...]

What? If whatever one says cannot be qualified nor quantified to any extent, it's completely subjective, and therefore irrelevant and useless. Note: Personal experiences that are useful match those criteria.

[...]Having done a lot of research and staying up to date with AMD cards & features simultaneously, I can also say that the things that set their cards apart would work better for a different use case scenario, since their strong point is the price-to-performance ratio.[...}

As shown above, false. As for the price-to-performance ratio: Great? Why not get the best card in his price range then, if it happens to be an AMD card?

[...]It's not like I'm getting paid by Nvidia to endorse their products,[...]

Ehm, okay. Just FYI, absolutely no reason to say that.

[...]I do a lot of source evaluation while being very open-minded about this kind of stuff, so when I think a product is better than another one, it's not because I'm a "fanboy" or because my friends use it.[...}

Given the feature list you posted earlier alone, since all features were NV-sided only, I honestly doubt that. The rest with the "usage scenario" stuff was simply false (see above) and absolutely not based on any research just solidifies my doubts.

[...]I'll happily change sides if AMD starts to deliver the same kind of features as Nvidia does, but to this point I haven't found it compelling. Basically, Nvidia's features are things I'd miss being without, while AMD's are not.[...]

Sure, how could one miss something he doesn't know off?

[...](And the boxed cooler will definitely not do for any [read: significant] overclocking. I've used the thing several times and seen the bloody results.)[...]

Define significant. If I can get the clocks up by 500MHz that results in 14% speed boost and 14% higher thermal output, given you can't manage to lower the voltage. That's a significant speed boost to me, doubtfully temperatures will go through the roof.


[...]I personally love my DeathAdder 2013, but if you want a new one I definitely don't reccomend the one you chose. There is a very limited list of mice I'd buy that actually have "flawless" optical sensors, among them being the Logitech G502 Proteus Core, for example.[...]

My advice, sevin:
Get a list of some mice and their tests(!). Have 3 canditates ready that tested well, go to a store and grab them. Pick whatever fits you best and order it cheaper online. No point in getting someone's recommendations if one has a palm grip and the other a claw grip.

As to on topic:
My point still stands. Just tell us when you're ready to do a purchase and things will be sorted out then. Now it's just a waste of time and apparently a hornet's nest.
As for the OT-discussion: It's OT. Feel free to add me anytime (@donut) and I can hand you over some literature so that you can stay open-minded about some features sevin never needs. Maybe I can learn some stuff from you too.
 
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DonutVikingChap

L5: Dapper Member
Mar 15, 2013
233
139
First part of this sentence is a typical empty phrase, I've already answered to that earlier, second part is just wtf.
I can't take you seriously anymore if you're going to say things like this, I won't even begin to describe how childish it is in this context. And I can't argue with you if you're just trying to prove everything I say wrong for no reason other than to look like you know better than me. You're not helping anyone by doing that.

Most of the "features" (most of them are open but AMD focusses on them significantly so support is evident) are open source. It basically outruns anything proprietary in terms of support and potential development time. Also, again, it's an empty phrase as long as there's not a list of manpower * time on that. Note: Nothing personal, but it's not an argument if it's just some empty phrase, especially with nothing to back it up.
Okay.
So, first off, CUDA and OpenCL are equally fast:
http://wiki.tiker.net/CudaVsOpenCL#Speed

Second, his usage scenarios:

"photoshop": Mercury engine supports both CUDA and OpenCL
"video editing": Sony Vegas supports OpenCL acceleration (as a matter of fact I'm using it)
"eventually 3d modelling":
-Blender: Yes
-3dsmax: Yes
-Maya: Yes
The important part here isn't whose facts are the most correct, but how they will affect the user in reality.

By "wider support" I meant that since Nvidia cards already have OpenCL support (since it is, as you said, an open standard), the fact that they have CUDA support too means you can also take advantage of CUDA-specific programs as well. The only main advantage of AMD cards in this regard is that they generally have better compute performance than their Nvidia counterparts. By "longer development time for some features" I meant that Nvidia were the first to introduce some things like ShadowPlay, GeForce Experience and G-Sync, while the AMD counterparts came later, and therefore aren't as developed yet.

As shown above, false. As for the price-to-performance ratio: Great? Why not get the best card in his price range then, if it happens to be an AMD card?
Because you can't measure how "good" a graphics card in raw performance by itself.

Given the feature list you posted earlier alone, since all features were NV-sided only, I honestly doubt that. The rest with the "usage scenario" stuff was simply false (see above) and absolutely not based on any research just solidifies my doubts.
Sure, how could one miss something he doesn't know off?
It wasn't false (see above). And of course the features were Nvidia-sided only since I was posting a list of Nvidia features...
I wasn't lying when I said i'd done my research on AMD cards too. I'm well aware of the performance improvements of the Mantle API, TressFX, the 6-monitor EyeFinity support, etc. that are specific (or work best) for AMD cards, but what I meant by "features I'd miss being without" were things like PhysX (is supported by many popular games and the effects are just pretty cool), ShadowPlay (is the best recording software I've ever used) and Remote Play using Nvidia Shield (I don't own an Nvidia Shield, but if I got one it would be awesome to have this feature). And AMD doesn't really have any features like that since Nvidia (unfortunately) restricts them to their graphics cards only.

To be fair, AMD cards have improved a lot over the years, especially in terms of drivers, stability and frame timings, but the nod still goes to Nvidia for me when discussing what is the most solid choice.

Define significant. If I can get the clocks up by 500MHz that results in 14% speed boost and 14% higher thermal output, given you can't manage to lower the voltage. That's a significant speed boost to me, doubtfully temperatures will go through the roof.
To me, "significant overclock" just means you'll notice any difference when you're using it normally.

Get a list of some mice and their tests(!). Have 3 canditates ready that tested well, go to a store and grab them. Pick whatever fits you best and order it cheaper online. No point in getting someone's recommendations if one has a palm grip and the other a claw grip.
Frankly, I'd rather have a better sensor first and then adjust my grip to get used to it, but that's just because I like to have as big of a competitive edge in games as possible. So if you're not as into that, sure.

As for the OT-discussion: It's OT. Feel free to add me anytime (@donut) and I can hand you over some literature so that you can stay open-minded about some features sevin never needs. Maybe I can learn some stuff from you too.
Whether he absolutely needs them or not, it's always nice to have. I think that if he had the opportunity to use ShadowPlay or PhysX, he wouldn't pass it up.
 

Fruity Snacks

Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums
aa
Sep 5, 2010
6,394
5,571
As I have warned people before, I would like for everyone to try and remain respectful and polite in how they are talking about things within this thread, and the rest of the community. Please try to refrain from direct insults or direct disrespect towards other community members. Failure to do so will result in warnings, infractions or bans depending on severity of problem. Etc. etc. etc.


Guys, I hate being serious, so play nice.
 

DonutVikingChap

L5: Dapper Member
Mar 15, 2013
233
139
As I have warned people before, I would like for everyone to try and remain respectful and polite in how they are talking about things within this thread, and the rest of the community. Please try to refrain from direct insults or direct disrespect towards other community members. Failure to do so will result in warnings, infractions or bans depending on severity of problem. Etc. etc. etc.


Guys, I hate being serious, so play nice.

I know, I'm sorry that this is going a bit overboard and I 100% agree that we should keep it as friendly as possible.
 

InstantMuffin

L2: Junior Member
May 26, 2014
64
48
I can't take you seriously anymore if you're going to say things like this, I won't even begin to describe how childish it is in this context. And I can't argue with you if you're just trying to prove everything I say wrong for no reason other than to look like you know better than me. You're not helping anyone by doing that.[...]

I second this, as well as your later post. I too have the feeling you're not interested in a discussion since I don't see any points made and I have the feeling you don't want to be criticized as soon as I mention things. The claim is somewhat ironic since you started right away as your introduction (as it turned out somewhat falsely as I can say the same about you) to call me out to have absolutely no clue. I have no intention of dominating or trolling anyone, sevin is asking for help and I feel obligated to help him as best as I can. So if I see a questionable point of course I will question it, you're not different in that motive, but lack that specific insight in noticing what you're doing in this discussion and how.
Since helping out sevin is off the table for now as he's not ready to make a purchase and therefore any recommendation is a waste of time and is not guaranteed to apply whenever he might be ready, I have no business here.
 
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DonutVikingChap

L5: Dapper Member
Mar 15, 2013
233
139
I second this, as well as your later post. I too have the feeling you're not interested in a discussion since I don't see any points made and I have the feeling you don't want to be criticized as soon as I mention things. The claim is somewhat ironic since you started right away as your introduction (as it turned out somewhat falsely as I can say the same about you) to call me out to have absolutely no clue. I have no intention of dominating or trolling anyone, sevin is asking for help and I feel obligated to help him as best as I can. So if I see a questionable point of course I will question it, you're not different in that motive, but lack that specific insight in noticing what you're doing.
Since helping out sevin is off the table for now as he's not ready to make a purchase and therefore any recommendation is a waste of time and is not guaranteed to apply whenever he might be ready, I have no business here.

Well, I think it's still worthwhile to discuss the potential advantages/disadvantages of AMD vs Nvidia in this case if we actually do manage to come to a conclusion. I just didn't like the way the discussion was heading since there was more name calling than actual discussion going on.

I still think I have proved why I'm right on this topic, but if you could give me some better insight as to why you think the Nvidia features I mentioned earlier (and recently clarified) are so unimportant, I'll gladly change my mind.

Basically, If you'd much rather have higher raw performance, I can see that AMD would be a better option (being a bit of an FPS whore myself), but I don't think it's worth it when even a 760 can run all the popular games on steam at >300 FPS anyway, and all the most demanding games at ~60.