sevin's First PC Build!

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by sevin, Dec 26, 2014.

  1. sevin

    aa sevin

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    So I've had a late 2012 iMac since it was new. I wasted a lot of money on it, and in the time since then I've learned a lot more about what I want to do with my computer and Macs aren't gonna cut it anymore. Its got great specs for an iMac, just a shitty GPU.

    I play some Steam games, do Photoshop, hopefully 3D modeling and video editing in the future. I know basically nothing about computer internals, so I spent a short time last night reading some stuff and watching a couple PC building videos. I threw this parts list together today based on ratings and my limited knowledge gained from my short research session last night.

    I hope I'll get $1000+ for my iMac, so ideally I want to cut this down to around that price. Is it much nicer to have 16gb of RAM? I have 16 now on my iMac, but my previous computer had such shitty specs I don't think I could compare them for RAM performance.

    Also, that motherboard is an SLI, which (after Googling) I found is a GPU performance enhancer when using 2+ GTX GPU's. Guess I don't need that? Pretty cheap, highly rated board though.

    If you guys need any more info, just ask and I'll answer!
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2014
  2. InstantMuffin

    InstantMuffin L2: Junior Member

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    Power supply is OP, get a 450W one, that's plenty.
    idk how old you are and what you're currently doing, but some collages offer OS licenses to their students for free. MIght save yourself 90 bucks. Plus win8 sucks anyway.
    You can also cut down on the motherboard to save yourself additional 20-30 bucks, any z77 chipset motherboard should suffice.
    The included cooler of the boxed CPU should suffice. If it's not quiet enough for you, you can upgrade any time. However I do not recommend buying tray CPUs. Those are usually someone's sendbacks (because one couldn't overclock them well enough).

    You might then invest the saved money into a better GPU, Something along a 290, 970GTX (I wouldn't recommend these because almost all of them suffer from extensive high frequency buzzing) or a 290X.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 26, 2014
  3. sevin

    aa sevin

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    I updated the power supply, it's gold rated, fully modular, cheaper and more highly rated than all the lower wattage power supplies. This will give me some breathing room should I decide to upgrade my GPU or even twin them in the future.

    Yeah, I don't really want Win8, but Win7 is the same price so why not. I'm a senior in high school, so I can't get some student licensed version I think.

    The CPU I chose seems to be the go-to for a great, mid-range i5 system. It's unlocked for overclocking, gets good benchmarks and is pretty well priced I think.

    Talk to me about the motherboards. I don't really know what I'm doing with any of this, but especially the motherboard. Obviously the control center for all the components, but I don't know about fan headers or z77 vs z87/z97 etc. Do I miss out on some features or headers and what not if I downgrade?
     
  4. InstantMuffin

    InstantMuffin L2: Junior Member

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    Never upgrade to MGPU (SLI or CrossFIre) by rebuying the same card. It's the worst thing one can do. Just upgrade to a current model when the time comes.

    You won't miss out by "downgrading" to a z77 motherboard. This one is a decent example: http://pcpartpicker.com/part/asrock-motherboard-z77extreme3

    But to be honest, you're asking in the wrong forum. I can't directly recommend any pc-related English-speaking forum on top of my head, but this one should be a very good start: http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/31/homebuilt.html or here http://forums.anandtech.com/forumdisplay.php?f=4 (don't hesitate to ask in both forums simultaneously and cross-question their recommendations!) There's probably some more fine-tuning possible that the people up there can come up with. So far I can't spot anything else other than what I've already mentioned.

    EDIT:
    I noticed you upgraded to a worse power supply. Pick a 450W one. Everything above is way too much and will lead to increased power suckage due to being in lower-efficiency load region.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 26, 2014
  5. sevin

    aa sevin

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    Updated with a different motherboard and video card (at a combo deal).

    I found a nice combo deal with a Asus GTX 760 and an Asus Z97. A friend tells me the Asus version of the 760 is very quiet and that Z97 is a combo deal right now.

    Are you sure about the power supply? I know it is a lot more than is called for, but it's an 80+ gold rating, doesn't that mean it has great efficiency? Won't having more power than I need just not use the extra or is the 750W what it actually draws from the wall all the time?

    Also, it's pretty common to see some people ask for build advice here, I've seen some interesting answers from people, that's why I posted here.
     
  6. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

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    From a semi-unexperienced in computer building point of view, and as someone with a 700W PSU, I totally recommend keeping a higher Wattage PSU if you plan to upgrade the parts in the future. If you can get a durable high watt supply, it's totally helpful down the road (I've upgraded a couple of parts in my computer to higher level stuff, and if I had a lower wattage PSU, I would've had to upgrade). In my opinion, take the higher one, just to be safer in the long-term.


    So, my 2 cents.

    Throwing in another little bit of science, you will still draw ~750W, but the system won't be as taxed when doing so.... If I understand Computer PSU's well.


    Ask Freyja or DonutTheViking, both know about computer building, have done the research and have helped many others in the past.
     
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  7. sevin

    aa sevin

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    I just switched out for a 500W supply that's really discounted right now, but I may go back up.

    I'm kinda hoping they post here ;)
     
  8. InstantMuffin

    InstantMuffin L2: Junior Member

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    Yes, I am sure about the power supply. There's a lot of bronze/silver/gold/platinum one's in the 450W range as well. However, unfortunately those certificates aren't always a sufficient indicator of a high quality power supply. I'm hoping that some experts on anandtech or tomshardware can shed some light on this and recommend you specific models.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "combo deal" but I'm not seeing any improvement. Just stick with what I've told you so far and verify my recommendations on a forum which specializes in hardware and recommendations.

    I've also noticed people asking around for hardware-related stuff on these forums. While it's smart to ask a lot of different people for input, it's even smarter to verify the information yourself and even more so ask in an environment that is filled with people specialized In this particular area, people who answer these questions every day. While you might get the right hint from someone random you talk to in a grocery store, you shouldn't rely on their answers to pick a car.

    If he should ever have enough money to set up a multi-gpu system which would need that much power (which is the only case in which he'd need a PSU in that range), he can surely adapt and buy a more suitable PSU. But that's what it's all about. Getting a suitable PSU to maximize efficiency and lower costs.



    I'm sorry but there is absolutely no science in this. To be honest this is complete nonsense and actually contradicts your first recommendation of upgrading to a high wattage PSU since the waste of electricity would be insane. (cross-out semi-inexperienced BTW, it's time for an upgrade)
    The wattage classification is the sum of the power that the PSU is build to safely supply long-term. His current configuration will suck about 300W during full-load, so a 450W PSU actually already has enough reserves. The difference between a smaller and bigger PSU here is that the highest efficiency is achieved around 80% load. So a 700W-classified PSU with the same efficiency curve will perform worse than a 450W PSU during a load of 300W.

    If needed I can actually go deeper into what efficiency means and how it works, but my fingers would fall off on this miniature keyboard and it's quite late here. So if there's any further interest in this particular topic, please say so and I'll post something more extensive tomorrow.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2014
  9. DonutVikingChap

    DonutVikingChap L5: Dapper Member

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    *Approaching siren sounds*
    PC police, drop your keyboards!
    We have detected some heavy misinformation in this area, we're here to get the situation under control.


    Aaaaanyway, most of the things Instantmuffin has said about power supplies in this thread is completely false. There is no reason at all to get a 450W power supply rather than a 500W for this build unless for a very specific PSU model. 500W is a great fit for a single-GPU build and leaves some headroom, and a 600/750W would have worked just as well. Of course it won't be maxed out all the time (it will only be running as hard as it needs to), but you don't start to notice any cost to efficiency until you go completely overboard.

    As for your particular choise, the CX500 is pretty good and I have used in a build myself, but if you want something more efficient you could go for something like the Fractal Design Tesla R2 500W or if you want something really high quality (which is never a bad thing with power supplies), the EVGA Supernova G2 750W.

    Other than that, your build currently in the OP is actually awesome! It's a great balance between price and performance and will suit your needs nicely. The only thing I'd change is the case (not absolutely, but corsair's graphite series is pretty wonky) and maybe upgrade the graphics card to a GTX 970 (this would make it an absolute beast). Anyway, good luck with your build!

    EDIT: You should also get the 4790K rather than the 4690K if you want the latest CPU (the same generation as the motherboard), but the old one will work as well I think.

    EDIT #2: Also, since you asked about SLI in the OP, it essentially just means the motherboard has support for 2 (or more in some cases) Nvidia cards at the same time, if you're crazy enough to decide to do that. It's usually just something the motherboard manufacturers like to tout as a high-end feature since Nvidia demands higher specifications for SLI support than the AMD counterpart (called Crossfire). So it's usually just a sign that the motherboard is pretty good.


    (For some background, I've helped several people with their computer builds on this forum before, I've helped at least 4 friends build their computers IRL and I've built at least 8 computers including my own and I watch computer-related videos on YouTube and visit computer forums daily. :) )
     
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  10. Freyja

    aa Freyja ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    SLI is never worth it unless you're using the current top of the line cards or one just below it. Especially in this generation, SLI support is always growing and 2 970's beats the socks of a single 980 (and sometimes even two 980's) for the same price.
     
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  11. sevin

    aa sevin

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    Thanks Donut! I'll take a look around at some other power supplies, like I've said, I'm just starting out with this so its gonna take me some time to learn my way around.

    My worry with the 970 is that it's like double the price of the Asus 760 I've got listed now. Is it really a big benefit? Is the 760 capable enough to play most games capably at high settings?

    EDIT: I notice the Tesla R2 isn't modular. Does that really matter?
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2014
  12. puxorb

    aa puxorb

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    I have a GTX 760 and I can play Crysis at highest setting at 50-60 fps....so yeah. I also play on a screen that is 22% harder to drive than a normal 1920x1080p. If you don't want to spend a lot of money go with the GTX 760, but if you have some money to spare definitely go with the 970. It will guarantee to run anything you throw at it.
     
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  13. sevin

    aa sevin

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    Updated the case and power supply:

    The new power supply has a better efficiency rating and sits a little closer to my estimated power consumption (381W), though it still allows for some breathing room in case I upgrade some components later on.

    The case just looks nicer and probably has better airflow or something I dunno ;)
     
  14. InstantMuffin

    InstantMuffin L2: Junior Member

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    Calling out people to be wrong is great, but please say what and why, because I'm certain to not be wrong. Contrary to my posts this claim has no proof or anything behind to hold it.

    @sevin:
    The measured power consumption is actually a bit lower (watch out, it's German but comes with nice graphs):
    http://www.computerbase.de/2013-11/asus-rog-mars-geforce-gtx-760-test/3/

    255W -> take a 450-500W PSU.
    The new one looks fine, but I'd look for a decent test to proof it before it's settled.

    Again, I don't recommend the 970GTX because of it's extensive high frequency noise, also it's a bit out of budget. As said, pick any motherboard with a Z77 chipset, leave out the extra cpu cooler as boxed is fine, and you have enough cash to pick a decent R290, which then requires a little PSU upgrade to the 550W ranges.

    Note: The testing system I'm referring to for power consumption values consists of an i7 4770K @ 4,4GHz and an ASUS Z87 Deluxe.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2014
  15. DonutVikingChap

    DonutVikingChap L5: Dapper Member

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    I'm sorry for calling you out like I did, but I couldn't find a better way of putting it at the time since you clearly don't really know what you're talking about.

    I think you might simply be misunderstanding something about power supplies.There is no optimal wattage for any given "average load" of a system, there is a wide range of wattages that will work perfectly well. (And your computer won't be using the "average load" all the time.) There is also a difference between certain power supplies in what load percentage they are the most efficient at, and it's basically never at 100%.

    Now, the 80 PLUS certification is a voluntary certification that the manufacturer gets on their power supply when it has passed a range of efficiency tests at 20%, 50% and 100% load that prove it is capable of sustaining an efficiency of higher than 80% at those specific loads. But since the 80 PLUS certification was invented in 2004, most power supplies today are more efficient than 80%, which is the reason why there are different tiers of 80 PLUS today, from 80% efficiency (80 PLUS) up to over 90% (80 PLUS Titanium).

    This is why it's great to choose power supplies with higher 80 PLUS tiers, but the crux is that they are only tested at those three specific loads, which means that some power supplies get away with it while being really inefficient at loads lower than 20%, for example. And this is part of the reason that you shouldn't buy a 1500W power supply for a system that only draws 80W at idle, for example, and I think this is what you're on to at an extreme scale.

    Of course, you shouldn't buy a PSU with too high wattage anyway since it's more expensive, but it's never bad to have some headroom so it's not maxed out and running hot all the time.

    And obviously, like you said, you shouldn't pick power supplies only based on their wattage and 80 PLUS rating. You have to read some detailed reviews too if you want to be sure that you're not getting crap. (I'm not 100% sure on the CSM series, for example.)


    As for the GTX 970, there have indeed been an unusually high amount of coil whine reports for that card, but I think you're pretty safe if you pick the right manufacturer.

    I wouldn't rather get an AMD card since they also have their fair share of issues and lack of Nvidia-specific features (which is frankly the reason why I always get Nvidia cards nowadays, in spite of their business practices that some people dislike). Examples are ShadowPlay, PhysX, Mercury engine, CUDA, 3D Vision, G-Sync, Streaming to a Shield, Nvidia Grid, etc. And of course, the GTX 760 will do perfectly fine. I have two friends that use it and they can max out any game they throw at it with a decent FPS (although I'd personally lower the settings in that case just to keep the FPS above 120).

    I see no reason to get the outdated Z77 chipset either. You can barely find it anywhere (reputable), it lacks a lot of features compared to Z97 and you will definitely not be able to do an upgrade in the future unless you swap your motherboard too. The $5 you might save by getting an old platform isn't worth it in the long run.

    You should also definitely not use the boxed cooler unless you're not overclocking (in which case you certainly should), and if you're not overclocking you shouldn't get a Z chipset and a K processor anyway, you should get the H97 chipset and a non-K CPU, which will also save you money.

    Having a non-modular PSU is also perfectly fine, as long as you have a good case where you can tuck away the excess cables somewhere. It will just be slightly more annoying when installing it.

    And here are some examples of cases I recommend at your budget:

    Fractal Design Arc Midi R2 <-- Probably your best bet (?)
    Fractal Design Define R4
    Fractal Design Define R5
    Corsair Obsidian 450D
    NZXT H440
    NZXT S340
    Phanteks Enthoo Pro

    Although the 230T is good for a less expensive case.
     
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  16. Freyja

    aa Freyja ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    The high coil wine reports comes from people often choosing EVGA and this time their 970 has a common problem with coil wine. The other aftermarket designs are fine except for rare cases.

    The 970 is an amazing card for it's price. It will signifiantly outperform a 760, draw less power and generate less heat, but obviously it costs more. A R9 290 is close in performance to the 970 but eats power and poops out heat, but is much cheaper because of price cuts to be competitive with the 970. But as Donut said, especially in design work, CUDA makes nvidia a little better for you.

    Also I <3 the NZXT H440 case.
     
  17. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

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    I really like those cases...


    Just, saying that.


    Yes, I've added this down as a potential case for my upgrade coming up.
     
  18. InstantMuffin

    InstantMuffin L2: Junior Member

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    Wow.

    This is interesting, because throughout your post you acknowledge stuff I've said. Contradiction?

    It's not what I've said. Regardless, there is an optimal wattage for a system. You measure the maximum power consumption, and that should be around 60% of the labeled wattage. That's where the efficiency curves have their peak (with slight variations ofc). Replace the 60% with 80% if you have something precalculated like sevin mentioned before, since those values tend to be higher.

    Nowhere did I say something which contradicts that.

    I am familiar with the certificates.

    All correct, exactly my point. If this is "too extreme" for you, sevin is asking for help and I feel inclined to fulfill his needs as well as possible. Why not find a fitting PSU then? Because it's "too extreme"? There's obviously a point to it. No reason falsely call someone out just because you happen to disagree on the weight of the point.


    It's not about picking the right manufacturer, it's based on the components which vary on a model-basis, therefore one should specifically pick out and look for a specific model and not for a manufacturer in general. I was in need of a new GPU just two weeks ago, and I had to go through a list of 970GTXs and find the cheapest one that has the smallest possibility (after all it cant be completely ruled out) of being affected. It turned out to be too expensive for my price range, so I settled for a specific R290X model.

    I'm sorry, but this is fanboy talk. Go onto any forum specialized in people handing out configurations and they'll smack you around for that.
    AMD as well has complementary features for all of the above (most of which are actually open in contrary to physx), besides the point that these are all features that are either dead, barely supported or not needed. Some of the things you mentioned (mercury playback engine for example) utilize both CUDA and OpenAL and therefore are supported by AMD cards as well. (Plus AMD has Mantle *cough*)
    So far dropping a list of buzzwords isn't much more than marketing.

    A single R290 (and anything above from both manufacturers) beats the crap out of two 760GTXs. If he saves the money elsewhere why not go for it?


    Would have been 30 bucks but I'm sure there's cheaper z97s motherboards out there as well. Plus, which you should know, when he needs CPU upgrade in a few years, it's going to be on an entirely different plattform as well. I'm not sure how you perform your upgrades but you usually end up with longer cycles of cpu, motherboard and ram, and faster cycles of GPU switches in between.

    The boxed cooler itself is perfectly fine. The 775-Prescott days are over, they're actually decent since a few years ago. I wouldn't at all recommend some random person who seeks help in finding a basic configuration to go right into overclocking his new system. If(!) at some point later he needs the increase in CPU performance and if the boxed cooler shouldn't suffice anymore (mild overclocking should be okay, as long as he lays off the voltage since TDP raises linearly with clock and squared with voltage).
    He is buying a boxed CPU anyway, which has the boxed cooler. He'll be fine. If someday he isn't, he can still purchase the cooler he would have purchased anyway.

    @sevin:
    Which interests me more at this point: How confident are you with assembling?
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2014
  19. DonutVikingChap

    DonutVikingChap L5: Dapper Member

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    I don't understand.

    At this point it sounds like you're just trying to bash me to win an argument that shouldn't exist. If anything, it should be a civilized discussion. But saying things like:
    makes it look to me like you're trying to ridicule me like a kid in grade school. I'm not sure what your intentions are, but that's how I'm taking it.

    I don't know how you're taking what I'm saying either, but I'm just trying to be helpful and give you and sevin a better understanding of how to choose power supplies, since you seem to have an understanding based solely on something you've read somewhere on a specific forum/guide. Why do you comment that whenever I gave non-related advice, it doesn't contradict what you said? Again, I'm not just trying to sit you down with everything I say, just help. If that's not what it comes off to you as, I'm sorry.

    Anyway,
    Even though this is true to some extent, it's not something you should think about as hard as you are, since the estimation of your system's "maximum power consumption" is never accurate, unless you take days to collect data from many sources with the exact same hardware configurations as yours. Even then, the difference in efficiency at this level is so ridiculously insignificant that it doesn't matter, and you would've been better off with more wattage for future upgrades/more stability anyway. Or even better, a higher-quality power supply that wasn't available at your "optimal wattage". There is also so much variation between different models of power supplies that the estimation becomes even less accurate, especially if there is a big difference in how they allocate their power between rails.

    If the "optimal" labaled wattage was ~450W and you could choose between a 450W power supply and a 550W power supply, and the 550W power supply had more stable power, less ripple, etc. it would be stupid to take the 450W one.

    Yes, it is too extreme. It's very misleading to act like choosing the "correct" wattage is very important, because it isn't. A good power supply objectively depends on so many more important factors, as both you and I have stated before. And again, a slightly "higher-than-optimal" wattage is usually not a significantly bad thing anyway, but rather a good thing. I think you may have been misled on this topic as well, are you experienced with building modern computers?

    I said manufacturer because most manufacturers only have one primary 970 model.

    Like a forum of AMD fanboys? But really, calling someone a fanboy for making valid purchasing decisions and leaning towards the brand that better suits their need based on their features is uncalled for.

    ShadowPlay: GVR hasn't been around as long and isn't as tightly integrated (at least not yet).
    PhysX: AMD has no equivalent support in games that support PhysX unless you want to hack it and run PhysX it in software (which is slow).
    Mercury engine: I actually didn't know it supports OpenCL too, but I assumed it was Nvidia only since it only supports CUDA in Adobe CS6 (important).
    CUDA: Some programs simply have better CUDA support and some have better OpenCL support. In this case, I think CUDA is more dominant.
    3D Vision: I find it's way more solid and user-friendly than HD3D
    G-Sync: Another situational example, but we don't have that much proof that Adaptive Sync is as good as G-Sync yet. It might matter a lot more in the future too when G-Sync monitors get less expensive.
    Nvidia Shield: AMD has no equivalent.
    Nvidia Grid: AMD has no equivalent.

    And these were just examples. Of course AMD also has some nice features, but it's how well they suit a user's needs that matters.

    True, but there is a chance that the next generation of CPUs will work on Z97 as well, and in whatever case, it doesn't change the fact that Z97 has more new features and is a better choice in general.

    The boxed cooler is perfectly fine for running a non-K, non-overclocked CPU, and I have used it in at least 3 different systems (2 Haswell, 1 Hawell refresh), but it just wouldn't be enough for any overclocking. I don't think you should do an insane overclock instantly either, but it isn't hard to do some decent overclocking or even let the motherboard do it automatically.

    Even if you decide not to do it immediately, it's way easier to get the cooler first anyway so you don't have to go through the hassle of replacing the cooler afterwards and wiping off all the thermal paste. It will also make the system run a bit cooler and quieter from the start.
     
  20. InstantMuffin

    InstantMuffin L2: Junior Member

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    I don't intend to start anything (I'm not going to quote your first reply on this one actually to return the volley).
    I fully agree with the power supply, you forgot that he started out with a 700W set and a 760. You should keep that in mind.
    As far as GPU manufacturer's special features go, they're all highly subjective (as you have noticed as well - "I think..." "I find...") and don't have any general advantage, if any. I'm not interested in following this all the way through as none of these things are actually what sevin is looking out for and it's what every regular poster in a forum dedicated to pc configurations would tell you as well, so I'm going to leave that lesson out. I'd just like to note that you're listing is a very biased evaluation as it doesn't contain any AMD-only feature. (Most of them are fair-and-square opensource-standards pushed by AMD, but there's still some exclusive stuff as you should know)
    I also don't see the cooler thing as a hassle, I see your proposal as money pre-invested to an extent that it might not even be needed and therefore be a waste of money. However I'm not interested in arguing with someone random on some cpu cooler. And yes, you can even do some overclocking with a boxed cooler. They're not that bad anymore. Plus, undervolting plus moderate overclocking is very possible so you might even end up with the same or lower thermal output.

    What I recommend:
    -Sevin, ask around on forums dedicated to your question. You've got a sneakpeek of different opinions here, now it's time to verify what you've heard in an environment where these questions are being asked on a minute-basis, before you do a final purchase
    -Sevin, can you actually assemble a computer? Have you done that before? If not, can someone do it for you?
    -Shame on me for asking this question now and not earlier, but are you actually going to do a purchase now (in the following two weeks) or later (maybe in two months)? In the latter case this is a waste of time then, you should come back when you're ready for the purchase.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2014