Runoff

[HellJumper]

Please do something about the waterfall edge. Engineers can just put up a wrangled sentry there, and it's over.

 

[Nineaxis]

After playing the map just a second ago i found a number of class imbalances including almost no benefits for engineer unless utilising the wrangler and an over powering of the pyro class. I suppose it's no surprise that the pyro would be suggested as OP given the death pit residing on one whole side of the map, but any single air blast can knock a medium wieght class from the centre of the map over the edge, and 2 airblasts for soldier and heavy. Any class that can 1 shot players in reflex, including ubers, should be re-considered significantly.

I've had no problems with pyros or the deathpit, I've never been killed by it except by my own error, and only seen one person airblasted off in all the tests. I know it's a bad stance to take when dealing with feedback, but I think people are overstating the effect the deathpit has gameplay. Besides, B1 will have some barriers to help.

Most other classes are balanced though there is an impartiality for scout and soldier. This was not exactly my observation at first but definately something that got mentioned by others several times in the server. Heavy has his place at times but gets focus fired by soldier and demos holding the ledges and spies flanking from the low ground. This isn't so much of an imbalance as it is an observation but if i were to list imbalances it would go

Pyro OP
Scout OP
Heavy UP
engi UP

That was sort of the intention. Viaduct is flat and offers little for gameplay. Runoff is built around height variation, flanking routes, and mobility for scout, soldier, and demoman, firstly so it is more interesting than deathmatching at the top of a hill, secondly so that it is a koth map that will work well for competitive play. Which, you know, is focused around scouts, soldiers, and demomen.

And while the map probably needs some additional cover, there's enough to make other classes viable, between the two houses, the point building, the lower route, and the upper route.

Considering the map further, Spy gameplay was repetative, as was medic; and who ever held the middle continued to control the map for extended periods of time. Normally a fresh spawn wave pushed through the remaining players but sometimes remaining soldiers, demos and spies could hold a team back for as good as 90 seconds through skirmish tactics. This could be considered standard gameplay for the map but a team that backed up remaining falling back players could control the map a singificant amount of time. This is quite frustrating for the assaulting team as even if they faught back and controlled the map they would easily get back capped at 0 seconds.

The map seemed completely revolved around hit and run tactics, which completely contrasts KoTH style gameplay. As a KoTH point usually gets capped several times in a round. Not once or twice.

I've observed the map consistently changing hands at least 3-4 times each round with balanced teams. Usually more. I see what you're saying about control of the map, but it seemed pretty fluid from the tests, with both teams making strong pushes that make the middle point dynamic. I feel the bigger problem was people not capping the point, which is partly my error, partly player error. If the point was capped after each team's push it would have changed hands a lot more, but I saw a lot of players clear mid of enemies then run around and not cap the point.

As for class balance, I'm not sure where you're going, because you seem to be pointing out game balance as map flaws. Soldiers and demomen utilize high ground (that's part of the game). Spies flank (that's part of the game). Scouts are highly mobile (that's part of the game). Heavies take concentrated fire, because they are high priority threats (that's part of the game).

I don't want to come off as ignoring your feedback or being hostile to it, but I'm just unsure what points you are trying to make about the map's layout.

it felt a little wide to me. if an engy can walk all the way across unnoticed and set up a sentry at your spawn........

i always took the lower route. it might be because: 1. its closer to spawn? 2. it connects to the other side of the map, unlike the upper route. 3. it has the most cover.

never got knocked into a deathpit yay

I'm starting to think the map may be a bit wide too. I'll see what can be done to provide more cover for the upper area.

These death cliffs, they feel really unnecessary. It'd just be infuriating to come out of my spawn and get airblasted or knocked off the cliff - it'd feel like a cheap death. Even if you want to have it so that it can fit in thematically with the map, you could always just fence it off with a body-height fence - it'd get the message across and still allow players to look out.

I'm probably going to fence it off so you get the vista without the danger.

Make this entire area ramped. Dunno why it isn't.

Thematics. It'll make more sense when detailed. And probably be better to use.

About the engineer... I really felt that engineer was great on this map with the Wrangler and not fun at all without. This was definitely a powerful spot for a sentry with the wrangler, since you have all of that area to look down on, and you get a perfect view of the house and most of the area inside of it.

There are some nasty sightlines there. I'll see what can be done.

This is one of the very, very few spots where a sentry would be viable without being guided by a wrangler. Because of the map's lack of sentry spots where I could just drop my sentry, have it be useful, and walk around and fight the other team, I felt like I had to constantly babysit my sentry and use the wrangler - not much fun for me. Maybe you should add some engineer spots that aren't able to be easily taken down by just walking backwards a bit and shooting?

I'll see about it. Viaduct's sentry spots are odd because they placed next to eachother with a thin wall between, and really kill gameplay at the point, so I want to avoid that. That upper route I'd like to be a viable engineer spot but it's also OP with the wrangler, as you said. Again, I'll explore some options to make engineer more viable.

Also, the map in general felt very similar to Viaduct. There's the control point on the hill that ramps up like that, the rocks that split the main pathway up in two, the areas that overlook the point (pic 4). Doesn't mean that it's bad, but I always like seeing new designs that work in maps.

Shaq is always relevant.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[grazr]

I was under the impression that you were indeed aiming for competitive play. If that's the case then you would probably be not as concerned about some of the maps dynamics. Such as favouring the Scout and Soldier. I simply observed some of the classic pub favoured classes such as pyro and engineer as having strangely superior or inferior perks.

I guess my feedback just isn't that surprising for you, so it seems like i'm stating the obvious.

One thing that i did find good about the map was that after capping the centre there was never any real effort to settle into a forward defencive position. Generally it was just players patrolling frequented enemy routes and grabbing the ledge on the side of the building. Which was surprising considering the generally small play area.

The map is wide but i never really saw a problem with it. This is one of my dislikes for viaduct (It's a choke at the point). Plus it kinda needs to be wide to lesson the impact of the death ledge.

The middle actually has good flow because of the drop down to the middle health pack. Which i think is one of the reasons why players don't immediately roll onto the enemy spawn gates.

The inside of the buildings did seem large though and as for it seeming like viaduct, the only similarity i found was the cliff top ledge for engineers.

Edit:

This was usually my route through the map and it was pretty effective.

Adding a number of rooms to the inside of the buildings would probably allow engineers to set up in more than one place and be effective. One thing i did note was that because the map wasn't that engi friendly there was a usually a lack of teleporters. Adding rooms would hopefully add contrasting close quarters gameplay that didn't revolve around the point; the generally large and samey-size areas weren't that friendly to tele's, which were always out in the open. At least this way it further promotse teleporters as they can be hidden in more corners etc.

 

[lana]

I still think that to have such dried earth covered with snow is a very bizarre thing. If it snows there, I'd expect that there would be at least some grass somewhere, and not all this desert soil.

 

[Nineaxis]

I was under the impression that you were indeed aiming for competitive play. If that's the case then you would probably be not as concerned about some of the maps dynamics. Such as favouring the Scout and Soldier. I simply observed some of the classic pub favoured classes such as pyro and engineer as having strangely superior or inferior perks.

I guess my feedback just isn't that surprising for you, so it seems like i'm stating the obvious.

Any feedback is good feedback, even if obvious. I see what you're saying about the classes though, and I'm inclined to point out that different maps offer different strategies and opportunities for different classes. But I agree it would probably be worth working on making it less soldier, demoman, and scout dominated in your casual public game though.

One thing that i did find good about the map was that after capping the centre there was never any real effort to settle into a forward defencive position. Generally it was just players patrolling frequented enemy routes and grabbing the ledge on the side of the building. Which was surprising considering the generally small play area.

Yeah, it helped the dynamism of the gameplay in that even if a team took control of mid, they never completely dominated the map and had the opportunity to push the enemy team back to yard or spawn. And I found myself spending downtime between pushes and capping mostly patrolling routes, as you said, which I think is pretty good, it sure beats spawncamping.

As for the small play area, I think it's the variety of option we're providing that makes it play as if it were larger. Viaduct doesn't offer anything other than attacking the point at ground level, and there's little chance of flanking, while Runoff provides three tiers of playable space and really gives the fight a larger scale for gameplay while not being in a necessarily larger physical space.

The map is wide but i never really saw a problem with it. This is one of my dislikes for viaduct (It's a choke at the point). Plus it kinda needs to be wide to lesson the impact of the death ledge.

The middle actually has good flow because of the drop down to the middle health pack. Which i think is one of the reasons why players don't immediately roll onto the enemy spawn gates.

Yeah, but my consideration for narrowing it would be maybe 64 units, just to tighten the playable space in the alley between the big building and the tower. It wouldn't kill the benefits of the larger upper area (like allowing the fight to exist away from the deathpit, while the deathpit route is the risk/reward of the health, similar to Lumberyard). Players generally would want to use the more covered upper (tower) route, the big building, or lower route, but by narrow that alley a bit, it would make it seem more covered, since more of it would be covered by the rocks, and it would be shorter crosswise, so ducking behind cover would be easier.

But I'm not sure about it, I'd like to hear opinions on it.

The inside of the buildings did seem large though and as for it seeming like viaduct, the only similarity i found was the cliff top ledge for engineers.

The buildings are a bit large, but I'm working with it a bit.

Edit:

This was usually my route through the map and it was pretty effective.

Yeah, it's things like this, offering creative routes and actual tactics for playing the map, that we want to separate Runoff from Viaduct and other KOTH maps.

Adding a number of rooms to the inside of the buildings would probably allow engineers to set up in more than one place an be effective. One thing i did note was that because the map wasn't that engi friendly there was a usually a lack of teleporters.

I saw some teleporters in tests, but I agree, engineers do have a difficult time, so offering some better options for them will help.

I still think that to have such dried earth covered with snow is a very bizarre thing. If it snows there, I'd expect that there would be at least some grass somewhere, and not all this desert soil.

There will be foliage. Just wait!

 

[StickZer0]

Played this with bots, was very fun indeed

I like how the natural height variation made the cap worth standing on, cut sniper lines, yet also the attackers could get above the point with relative ease. All the healthpacks were exactly where i'd have expected them to be, which was great! Good map, looking forwards to the next alpha

Also agreed with grazr, the buildings did seem quite bland (not detail wise, but they're just boxes if that makes sense?)

 

[The Political Gamer]

I know this might be nit picking but it I really don't like it that the death pit is right outside spawn. It feels like its in the right spot when it comes to the mid but around the spawns it kinda feel unnecessary. I guess the easy fix would be a simple fence.

 

[Nineaxis]

I know this might be nit picking but it I really don't like it that the death pit is right outside spawn. It feels like its in the right spot when it comes to the mid but around the spawns it kinda feel unnecessary. I guess the easy fix would be a simple fence.

...

These death cliffs, they feel really unnecessary. It'd just be infuriating to come out of my spawn and get airblasted or knocked off the cliff - it'd feel like a cheap death. Even if you want to have it so that it can fit in thematically with the map, you could always just fence it off with a body-height fence - it'd get the message across and still allow players to look out.

I'm probably going to fence it off so you get the vista without the danger.

 

[lana]

Fences: all the vista, none of the danger

 

[The Political Gamer]

2lazy2read

(But good to know you are doing it)

 

[Nineaxis]

^ TPG had to have the 69th post in this thread.

But more relevent, MAP PROGRESS. And the most crazy subtle map branding you'll ever see.

 

[Penguin]

A huge white "9" does not a brand make.

 

[Eyce]

^ TPG had to have the 69th post in this thread.

But more relevent, MAP PROGRESS. And the most crazy subtle map branding you'll ever see.

see what i did there?

 

[HellJumper]

Symmetry with snow is awkward.

 

[Nineaxis]

Symmetry with snow is awkward.

The shot I keep posting is deceiving, since you'll never actually see the map from that far away and at that angle. Map looks a lot better running around on the ground.

 

[MangyCarface]

Symmetry with snow is awkward.

Awkward is explaining mapping to your friends

Symmetry with snow is AOK at ground level and Nine will probably break it up more anyway

 

[lana]

For some reason I don't like the snow. I'm just sticking to my guns about it standing out against red earth, but whatever. The hill looks a little dull amidst the heavy detailing on RED and BLU's sides.

 

[Prestige]

i could see some nice clear ice in the desert (maybe some icicles) with a little bit of snow, but not just snow. :/

maybe just me.

 

[tyler]

I like how this map is built, but I agree about snow/desert being bizarre.

 

[DaBeatzProject]

It's not bizarre You just never read about it in the magazines.