"resupply lockers"

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by FOREVER, Feb 14, 2011.

  1. FOREVER

    FOREVER L1: Registered

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    I'm on the verge of a first map and I thought before I go all gung-ho and make a map sans all the things I hate about valve's maps I should ask about at least one of those things.

    Is there any reason whatsoever for restricting the func_regenerate to the immediate vicinity of a resupply locker? i.e., is there any principled reason for resupply lockers in a spawn rather than the whole spawn being functionally a 'resupply locker'? My experience has been that I only return to spawn for one reason - to get healed/ammo'd, and the extra time spent sidling up to a locker (sometimes after an entirely unnecessary and obnoxious run, *cough* egypt *cough*) does nothing to make the game any smoother or more fun.

    So is a tiny resupply box a cosmetic convention, or something that figures into some relevant facet of gameplay I'm unaware of?

    new to the forums, mapping, hello, etc.
     
  2. Okrag

    aa Okrag Wall Staples

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    You don't want people to be able to just stand in the doorway of a spawn and spam while getting resupplied.
     
  3. FOREVER

    FOREVER L1: Registered

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    ...so put the resupply zone behind the range of the door...

    and besides, on any good map what is there to spam from spawn?
     
  4. nik

    nik L12: Fabulous Member

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    Just put the lockers within a reasonable range from the door, usually along the wall which the exit door is located, it makes more sense than having the entire room a resupply zone.

    Also welcome :)
     
  5. Pocket

    aa Pocket func_croc

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    Probably part of it was that they wanted to explain where the health and ammo are coming from, rather than just have it just happen. They don't want certain aspects of the game to feel more like magic than logic.
     
  6. FOREVER

    FOREVER L1: Registered

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    thanks for the welcome! but my question is, why does the convention make more sense than making the bulk of the spawn a resupply zone?
     
  7. Vincent

    aa Vincent 🔨 Grandmaster Lizard Wizard Jedi 🔨

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    Because its aesthetically pleasing, if the whole respawn was one big resupply it wouldn't feel right and it would create issues on maps (A/D come to mind, single stage PL as well) where a team could sit in the spawn door and just rain down death on the other team.
     
  8. FOREVER

    FOREVER L1: Registered

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    I suspect your first point is correct.

    As for the second, two points: I can't actually think of a map with spawns that would enable such spamming. Are you thinking of a specific stage/zone? And even then one could just put the resupply area behind the range of the door, or adjust sightlines, right?

    My negative feeling for resupply lockers is because they've gotten me killed (pyros) enough times for a tiny resupply area to be an inconvenience. If they are in the game purely for cosmetics, well I don't feel bad at all about sacrificing cosmetics to smoother gameplay.
     
  9. Zhan

    Zhan L5: Dapper Member

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    As long as the resupply cabinet is within reasonable distance of the door and not far far away (as in Egypt) you should be just fine, gameplay will be sufficiently smooth, players will be happy and not be confused or critical of non-conventional respawn rooms.
     
  10. Seba

    aa Seba DR. BIG FUCKER, PHD

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    Resupply lockers aren't right at the spawn entrance mainly to balance gameplay; if the entire spawn was a func_regenerate, Dustbowl 3-2 would be impossible to attack, for example. If your resupply lockers are really close to the entrance then that team has an advantage by being able to return to the fight more quickly; if they're really far away, like in Egypt, then players get frustrated and that team has a major disadvantage.
     
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  11. FOREVER

    FOREVER L1: Registered

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    I think it's quite clear that the entire spawn area shouldn't be func_regen, because of stages like Dustbowl 3/2, but I think it's equally clear that restricting func_regen to the immediate vicinity of the supply cabinet is a decision that has absolutely nothing to do with convenience or gameplay experience.

    I know it seems tedious to be bothered by this, but supply cabinets are in non-standard positions in a lot of maps and having to hustle to them gets on my nerves as I know how easy it would be to have a smarter system. If supply lockers are easy to ignore and play around then one can't seriously argue for keeping them over a functionally equivalent alternative; if their only utility is aesthetic and they negatively influence gameplay even .1% of time for a minority of players then that alone is a sufficient reason in my mind to figure out a smarter system.

    My understanding of the spawn area is that players should be spending as little time there as possible - the game happens outside - and even tiny changes to speed up the resupply process in sum lead to improved gameplay, i.e. events outside the spawn. I think this is a pretty sane outlook!
     
  12. red_flame586

    red_flame586 L7: Fancy Member

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    I think it's not right to say that lockers negatively impact gameplay. In several instances, lockers are very important so as not to give one team a huge advantage over another. One of the things a map maker can do to remove a balance problem is to move the locker away from the door so players are spending more time inside the re-spawn room. Yes this might be more tedious for the player, but you need to look how the overall fun of the map plays out compared to that of a very small part

    In general the reason a locker is there is a) as an aesthetic reason to why your ammo and health has been magically re-stocked b) as a very small game changer, giving or removing an advantage to certain teams c) there's been no alternative.

    I don't think there's to much of a problem regarding them, and as long as they're not in an impossibly annoying position, then you don't have much to worry about. Look at the majority of official maps, and they have reasonable locker position. If you make the lockers in the right place, then there shouldn't be a problem
     
  13. FOREVER

    FOREVER L1: Registered

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    Which specific maps are you referring to?
     
  14. sniprpenguin

    sniprpenguin L6: Sharp Member

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    OK, stop using logic.

    Imagine you're an idiot. You go into the spawn room, and you have your health and ammo back again. All you did was walk into a room. THAT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.

    Now imagine walking into that spawn room, low on health and ammo. You see a locker with the ammo and medicine signs on it. You go closer. It opens, and it has an abundance of healthkits and ammunition! And HOLY COW MY HEALTH AND AMMO ARE BACK! THAT MAKES SENSE!

    It's not the best competitive-wise, but it's the best intuitive-wise. Remember, the majority of players are idiots who go as the 5th sniper when there's no medics. Yes, it's frustrating to burn to death when you're 5 inches from the locker. But even more frustrating would be playing the opposing pyro and never getting any kills because people just walk into the room and PRESTOCHANGO no more fire. Remember, smarter/efficient =/= better for certain things. You need to play to the lowest denominator, whether you want to or not.

    In summary, just place the locker and stop fighting us over it. It's not that hard.

    EDIT: Ninja'd, written before red_flame's post went up.
     
  15. FOREVER

    FOREVER L1: Registered

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    your first sentence made me laugh. Since you seem to agree that my suggestion is smarter/efficient, I'm happy to not dispute your tenuous psychological speculation.

    Plus, I don't think the resupply effect, implemented however, should be mysterious and difficult for players to understand - it should be entirely intuitive and effortless, because the game is waiting outside. "Find the locker" isn't intuitive and effortless. "Spawn=safe area=resupply" actually is intuitive and effortless, contra your fun imaginings.
     
  16. Vincent

    aa Vincent 🔨 Grandmaster Lizard Wizard Jedi 🔨

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    Whenever I wake up in the morning my hair is magically washed because I walked into the bathroom. This makes sense to me. Yeah. </sarcasm>

    You can defend your opinion all you want, it's just a proven fact that even though the resupply locker isn't that game changing it's there for a reason. We've all been in the situation where we run into our spawn going "Oh god oh man I'm fire" and bam we die within a hammer unit from health. The thing is though this can happen anywhere, I've died on health kits plenty of times.

    Thats not really the point though, for the sake of avoiding a flaming just trust us about this or don't. If you don't want a resupply locker then don't add one, it's simple as that. We're just gonna sit here and tell you it's not the right thing to do.
     
  17. FOREVER

    FOREVER L1: Registered

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    My original post was intended to see what functional reason exists for the supply lockers being implemented the way they are. So far nobody has issued a reason other than 'it makes sense for low IQ players' and 'map balance' (but the maps this dynamic balances haven't been named).

    You say it's a proven fact that supply lockers serve a function that would be neglected by a larger func_respawn area, but you claim that function is to allow pyros to spawn camp? It's starting to look like there actually is no coherent reason, or at least nobody can effectively articulate what it is.

    EDIT: I'm not flaming - I really want to know if there's a gameplay-based reason for this element in the spawn of every tf2 map, or whether it's a cosmetic convention. The truth of this will determine my map design, which is pretty important to me! I didn't expect opacity behind something valve clearly made a calculated decision to implement, unless I'm just being thick, in which case I invite people to be quite specific (e.g., what maps does this balance, and how do we know this to be true?) about what makes supply lockers unique and functionally important to gameplay.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2011
  18. red_flame586

    red_flame586 L7: Fancy Member

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    For example, dustbowl. Blue spawn stage 1, the resupply is quite close to the door because there, they're at a slight disadvantage and it allows them to easier flood out the door. Red spawn stage 3, on both cases you have to run around a large corner to get to the resupply. This is so that players can't just jump in and out of the spawn room as they wish making it even harder for blu to get to the point. There are plenty of other good maps that show this idea, if you need more example ask.

    A few other reasons to add onto this:
    1. every single other map does it. it's not always completely obvious to players that their health has been filled and often they'll become confused and unsure that you can actually become healed in a re spawn room. Generally if it's done in every single other map, you should do it in yours to, otherwise players start to think your trying to be gimmicky.
    2. I'm not 100% sure of this but whenever you enter the area to get healed, it plays a sound of the cupboard opening and closing. If this was to take up the entire room, as far as I understand, you'd have this sound constantly playing until you get out... As far as i guess anyway.
    3. You will get idiots... it's inevitable... they will sit in your respawn and complain and have no idea what's happening. Even smart people will take a bit to realise what's happening, and then they'll complain. Then with people complaining, other people will start complaining for no apparent reason... It happens. The last thing you want happening in a map is for players to complain.

    Overall it's such an insignificant detail. People have been playing tf2 long enough to realise that you run to a locker, you get health and ammo. Don't try and change it. If you somehow work out a smart, obvious, non-gimmicky, efficient, effective way to have a larger area, without any of the problems people have mentioned then go for it.

    Otherwise, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
     
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    Last edited: Feb 15, 2011
  19. FOREVER

    FOREVER L1: Registered

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    Thanks! I'll keep this in mind the next time I play dustbowl and see how the locker dynamic works there, although I stand by my intuition that a solid status quo is no reason not to strive for improvement.

    One option might be a spawn with beefed-up dispensers such that the healing beam is super obvious for those thicker players...or just active supply lockers with a larger range...I'll see what works (although I don't actually expect anyone to play my map when it's done).
     
  20. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

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    One thing you appear to be doing is not reading the posts people make.

    A couple people mentioned Dustbowl before you finally noticed. I'd say the spawns for RED on Gold Rush are similar in that idea. Also Turbine: the lockers are farther from the intel, closer to the middle.

    When you ask how it affects gameplay, several people already told you. It's a balancing factor.

    Just use lockers.

    The thing about using dispensers is that it looks fucking weird in spawn rooms. Same reason you don't normally pose player models in maps. Just don't do it. It's part of the TF2 design, so if your map is a remotely serious endeavor just don't do it.