"resupply lockers"

FOREVER

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Feb 14, 2011
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Using arguments of logical fallacies only work in academia and research papers. This is the internet, son.

And the updates are primarily for adding new content to the game, and then fixing some of that new content when the userbase finds ways to exploit them. Locker placement has nothing to do with the updates. And, you asked, so: you're wrong about placing lockers to maximize the convenience of players. It's about balance.

OK Rexy tell me a specific instance where making the spawn less convenient uniquely accomplishes balance.

And relying on logical fallacies works nowhere. This might be the internet but we can assume that someone around here has a brain.
 

Rexy

The Kwisatz Haderach
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Dec 22, 2008
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OK Rexy tell me a specific instance where making the spawn less convenient uniquely accomplishes balance.

Dustbowl stage 3, capture zone 2. Notice how the supply cabinets are way far away from the spawn doors. It's a lengthy walk. And then notice how close the capture zone is. If all Red had to do to resupply was walk inside the door, Blu would never be able to capture. Ever. Unless you stacked the teams with the hulk. And the hulk isn't in TF2.
 
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FOREVER

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Feb 14, 2011
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Which is why I said "uniquely." You could balance that point just as easily by adjusting the locations/orientations of the entire spawn while making the spawn itself more convenient.

Any others?
 

tyler

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Sep 11, 2013
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But if their spawn was farther away, they couldn't duck to safety as fast. Then you have to add intermediate cover to avoid the walk being open. Then you've got so much space you need to add more health pickups. Then how do I give anti-thanks to this guy
 
Mar 23, 2010
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maybe having the resupply lockers farther away played better than moving the entire spawn. sounds a heck of a lot easier too.
 

Rexy

The Kwisatz Haderach
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Dec 22, 2008
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Granary, capture points 1 and 5, those being closest to each teams first spawn locations. Same principle. The spawn door is literally feet away. The attacking team would have no chance taking the last point without the resupply cabinet being as far away as it is.

You want another one? Dustbowl stage 2-2. Dustbowl stage 1-2. Goldrush stages 1, 2, 3. Badlands, points 1 and 5. Gravelpit. Hoodoo. Manor. Junction. Yukon. Steel. Egypt. It's not unique. It's everywhere. It's a time-tested authentication of approval and validation. There's a reason it's widely used for balance--because it works.
 

Ravidge

Grand Vizier
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May 14, 2008
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Which is why I said "uniquely." You could balance that point just as easily by adjusting the locations/orientations of the entire spawn while making the spawn itself more convenient.

Any others?

You're brushing that off pretty easily.
Though I don't see what you mean, perhaps you could show me?

Here's a clean picture for you
SS-2011.02.17-04.56.29.png


Those white areas are the spawns, also the structures around the spawns are the previous stages of course so be careful not intersect with those.
 

FOREVER

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Feb 14, 2011
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When I say "adjust" I mean a 90 degree rotation of the spawn. Not hard! No need for extra cover, but the sightline from spawn to point is properly broken, thereby blocking spam.

I'm sort of surprised nobody's mentioned how making the resupply cabinets more arduous to reach makes engies build dispensers more.

Look, my point of view is that the player should be forced to spend as little time as possible in spawn, because that isn't fun and it's easily avoided with good spawn design. You guys are committed to the view that some situations REQUIRE a spawn that's internally inconvenient. I contest that you can always adjust the entire spawn to accommodate these worries. That valve hasn't done so is no argument against me.
 

Vincent

&#128296 Grandmaster Lizard Wizard Jedi &#128296
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Sep 5, 2009
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7 Pages and you're still at it?

You got the whole community going against you on this, why do you keep fighting it?

EDIT: Call me lazy all you want but I'd much prefer a simpler fix to a balance issue, this case making the resupply farther away, rather then changing the entirety of my spawn. It's a lot of unneeded work if I can simply change 1 entity brush and 1 dynamic props location.
 

tyler

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Sep 11, 2013
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Dispensers aren't an instant heal and resupply!

Anyway, I mapped out your ideal spawn room. No credit needed.

e8GGL.png
 

FOREVER

L1: Registered
Feb 14, 2011
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You're brushing that off pretty easily.
Though I don't see what you mean, perhaps you could show me?

Here's a clean picture for you
SS-2011.02.17-04.56.29.png


Those white areas are the spawns, also the structures around the spawns are the previous stages of course so be careful not intersect with those.

easy. raise the spawn, turn it 90 degrees, both exits involve stairs, one cannot spam the point from the spawn door.

EDIT: 45 degrees works too.
 

FOREVER

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Feb 14, 2011
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And as a general response to maps that use inconvenient locker placement for balance: those are poorly designed maps, in that regard (I'll save my list of valve mapping grievances for another interminable thread :) )

All I want is an answer to these question: Is it possible to design a map that's balanced without an inconvenient respawn locker location? If so, is it suggested?

I think both are true! does anyone disagree?
 

tyler

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Sep 11, 2013
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You don't need to have fun all the time! How would you know if you are having fun if you've never had anything BUT fun?

Stupid philosophy aside, sometimes players want a break! A closer spawn but farther cabinet means they can take stock of what just happened, is happening, and how they want to react to it.
 

FOREVER

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Feb 14, 2011
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You don't need to have fun all the time! How would you know if you are having fun if you've never had anything BUT fun?

Stupid philosophy aside, sometimes players want a break! A closer spawn but farther cabinet means they can take stock of what just happened, is happening, and how they want to react to it.

...I'm assuming this is a joke!
 

Vincent

&#128296 Grandmaster Lizard Wizard Jedi &#128296
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Sep 5, 2009
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...I'm assuming this is a joke!

Depends on the person, if I'm playing to win then those 2-3 seconds out of combat when I die or run back to spawn give me time to think. I'm not saying everyone does that, but for a small group those few seconds out of combat help calm me down.
 

FOREVER

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Feb 14, 2011
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Depends on the person, if I'm playing to win then those 2-3 seconds out of combat when I die or run back to spawn give me time to think. I'm not saying everyone does that, but for a small group those few seconds out of combat help calm me down.

And I'm guessing only a jog to a supply locker provides those 2-3 seconds - you can't just sit in spawn for 2-3 seconds, right next to a intelligently located supply locker.

The reasons people are giving for valve's lazy mapping have gotten so interesting
 

Rexy

The Kwisatz Haderach
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Dec 22, 2008
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Alright, you've proven your point. I fully support your choice to make a map with a resupply cabinet that has placement next to the door for the greatest amount of convenience. Make this map, and I'll have it uploaded and we'll all play it.
 

Icarus

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Sep 10, 2008
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I put the lockers in the back because Mangy was complaining about engineers ):

Seriously though, I didn't think those 2 seconds of extra walking were much of an issue. I didn't want players having health so close to the spawn exit, since they overlooked a significant position. Spawncamping wasn't much of an issue, since the CP capped so fast. If it came to spawncamping the team probably didn't have much of a chance regardless.

An alternative spawn exit design might have worked, but I also didn't want players to take too many turns on their way out, and the distance from spawn -> CP was already getting pretty lengthy.

It was an efficient solution. I'm sorry :(
 
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